Leopard Care Questions

[HollieK]

Hi. I've had my Leopard Tortoise, Flint for a few months now and I've seen a lot of contradicting opinions about his care so I just wanted to ask for a few thoughts? I didn't want to post on any of the FB groups I'm apart of as they can get a bit vicious.

1. He currently lives in an enclosed PVC greenhouse which I'm hoping to upgrade but recently I've been told he should be on a table with just a humid hide? Other people recommend a viv which again this group are against so I'm not sure whether to just stick with what I have or go for either a viv or a table in the future? I just want him to have the best environment possible in order to thrive.

2. I'm a member of a few groups that are completely against shop bought food and say it's to blame for pyramiding and health problems later in life due to the pesticides and fertilizers not being suitable for such a small animal whilst others feed supermarket food everyday. I'm trying to home grow most of his diet but I also want to include a bit of variety in the mean time but I'm not sure whether to buy anything from the shops. What do you think?

3. I've been hearing that daily baths can be dehydrating and can cause tortoises to be unable to digest their food properly. I bathe Flint everyday as it helps him go and he just enjoys it anyway but I don't want to be doing anything detrimental to his health? Should I be bathing less often?

Sorry if these are basic questions but I'm just a bit unsure. TIA for the help and if you have any tips I'd really appreciate it!

 

[JoesMum]

Hi. I've had my Leopard Tortoise, Flint for a few months now and I've seen a lot of contradicting opinions about his care so I just wanted to ask for a few thoughts? I didn't want to post on any of the FB groups I'm apart of as they can get a bit vicious.

Wise move to stay off FB. Only the other day on here we were discussing the often outdated, sometimes dangerous, advice from self appointed experts on FB. Here on TFO you have a huge international community of species experts, breeders and vets who are working hard to get up to date information on care out there.

Everything you need to know is in these threads. Ignore the conflict

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

How to raise a healthy Leopard Tortoise
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

For those that have a young Sulcata (applies to LTs too)
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

1. He currently lives in an enclosed PVC greenhouse which I'm hoping to upgrade but recently I've been told he should be on a table with just a humid hide? Other people recommend a viv which again this group are against so I'm not sure whether to just stick with what I have or go for either a viv or a table in the future? I just want him to have the best environment possible in order to thrive.

How big/old is he? Babies need a closed chamber which the tent or viv provide. As he gets older that will be too small and you move to the table and then outdoors (Leopard Torts get pretty enormous - too big for indoors)

2. I'm a member of a few groups that are completely against shop bought food and say it's to blame for pyramiding and health problems later in life due to the pesticides and fertilizers not being suitable for such a small animal whilst others feed supermarket food everyday. I'm trying to home grow most of his diet but I also want to include a bit of variety in the mean time but I'm not sure whether to buy anything from the shops. What do you think?

What do I think? Leave the groups and don’t return!
Yes, the ideal is diet for your tort is weedy and leafy greens. They must be chemical free when grown outside or from a garden centre.

Shop bought greens are not instant death and can be the only way to get through the winter when weeds are hard to find. If they’re suitable for human consumption and TTT (coming to that) gives them the thumbs up then they’re fine.

Write a list of the plants that grow around you and those that you can buy and look them up online on The Tortoise Table Plant Database (aka TTT) for suitability to feed. If you can’t identify a plant then post a photo of it on our Plant ID section and someone will help you.
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/

3. I've been hearing that daily baths can be dehydrating and can cause tortoises to be unable to digest their food properly. I bathe Flint everyday as it helps him go and he just enjoys it anyway but I don't want to be doing anything detrimental to his health? Should I be bathing less often?

TOTAL DANGEROUS RUBBISH!

A dehydrated tortoise gets kidney stones and won’t grow smoothly and healthily. Young torts, sick torts and any tortoise that isn’t properly needs daily soaks of at least 20 minutes in warm water. As they get older you can cut it down, but daily soaks won’t do any harm if you did then for life.

Sorry if these are basic questions but I'm just a bit unsure. TIA for the help and if you have any tips I'd really appreciate it!

They’re not silly questions at all and I am glad you asked them. Please drop the facebook groups and just talk to us here.

We are happy to look over photos of your enclosure and lighting to advise on improvements and we love photos of tortoises anyway

 

[JoesMum]

That should say “ young torts, sick torts and any tort that isn’t eating properly need daily soaks”... I missed out a word, sorry.

 

[HollieK]

Thanks so much for the reply! He was born in December 2016 so he's still pretty small at the moment. The FB group were recommending tables for babies too that's why I wanted to ask as I had him in one for a few days when I first got him (I wasn't originally planning on a leopard but...) and he seems much more active in his greenhouse. I also don't want to be ripped apart by them for using a viv lol. I'm hoping to convert either a kennel or wendy house with a cold frame for him when he gets a bit bigger but for now he seems happy with the greenhouse he's in though I have bought a bigger version for whenever I feel he needs an upgrade.

I'm glad about the shop greens! I've bought loads of tortoise safe plants from reptile shops and conventions but he eats them so quickly (within a day or two) and at £5 a time it's just not feasible in the long run so I'm hoping to mix some shop bought lambs lettuce and chicory in every once in a while just to bulk it out whilst they grow. I'm also trying to grow some stuff from seeds so fingers crossed that works out. I use the TTT app too but he's very picky about what plants he'll eat, he mainly likes dandelion, plantain, fittonia, self heal and lemon balm and he turns his nose up at any of the easier to find weeds like sow thistle and even grass. He also hates nutrazi, bromeliad and dried weeds/flowers too. He's picky lol but even if I mix a tiny bit of the stuff he doesn't like in he'll manage to eat around it or just spit it out.

I'll keep bathing him everyday then! I didn't think it was doing him any harm tbh as he's most relaxed in the bath but I just worry a lot, he's my first tortoise and though we've kept reptiles before I just want to do my best for him. Honestly some of the FB groups are really bad and though they've taught me a lot it can get a bit too mean (and snobby??) sometimes.

Here are some photos of him and his enclosure.

His substrate is a mix of top soil, coco fibre and a bit of orchid bark to help with humidity. I also mist a lot as it's been hard to keep the humidity up with the weather recently. His bulbs are just an MVB and a ordinary basking bulb for added heat, I use a CHE at night as he lives in a shed (more space!) and it's really cold recently. I'm thinking of bringing him in at night if it continues to drop. He has an outdoor enclosure for when it's warm but he hasn't had much use of it recently and he generally prefers when I take him into the front garden for a wander.

Sorry for the paragraphs, tad over enthusiastic lol

 

[Tom]

Hi. I've had my Leopard Tortoise, Flint for a few months now and I've seen a lot of contradicting opinions about his care so I just wanted to ask for a few thoughts? I didn't want to post on any of the FB groups I'm apart of as they can get a bit vicious.

1. He currently lives in an enclosed PVC greenhouse which I'm hoping to upgrade but recently I've been told he should be on a table with just a humid hide? Other people recommend a viv which again this group are against so I'm not sure whether to just stick with what I have or go for either a viv or a table in the future? I just want him to have the best environment possible in order to thrive.

2. I'm a member of a few groups that are completely against shop bought food and say it's to blame for pyramiding and health problems later in life due to the pesticides and fertilizers not being suitable for such a small animal whilst others feed supermarket food everyday. I'm trying to home grow most of his diet but I also want to include a bit of variety in the mean time but I'm not sure whether to buy anything from the shops. What do you think?

3. I've been hearing that daily baths can be dehydrating and can cause tortoises to be unable to digest their food properly. I bathe Flint everyday as it helps him go and he just enjoys it anyway but I don't want to be doing anything detrimental to his health? Should I be bathing less often?

Sorry if these are basic questions but I'm just a bit unsure. TIA for the help and if you have any tips I'd really appreciate it!

Sounds like you've really had a bad time with these other groups. Sorry to hear that. You should not feel like you are bothering anyone, or asking too many questions here. All of us come here to talk torts, and your questions help fuel the conversation. In my experience, many other people will have the same questions as you do, and benefit from you asking.

There is a lot of old, out-dated, incorrect info circulating around out in the world. It sometimes seems like the people with the least amount of experience to back up their incorrect claims, shout down others the loudest. This is unfortunate and its the tortoises and prospective new tortoise keepers that lose out when this happens. This being the case, I'm glad you found us and I hope your experience here will be a lot more pleasant and enjoyable. This is your hobby. Its supposed to be enjoyable and fun.

Joe's Mum answered your questions in excellent fashion, as usual, but I still want to answer them in my own words.

1. In deciding which type of enclosure to use, you must first decide what conditions your baby needs to thrive. Dry conditions are not good for them. Erratic and large temperature swings are not good for them. In a typical cold, dry room, with heating and air conditioning (Maybe not so much AC in the UK, but other places get hot…), conditions are much too dry and too cool for a baby to thrive. All of my experiments, and the 1000's of people around the world who are now duplicating my experiments, prove that babies thrive in warm, humid, tropical conditions. How can a person provide warm, tropical, humid conditions in a cold dry room with an open topped enclosure? You can't. There are many ways to do it, but the enclosure air must be closed off from the room air. A large viv is one way to do it, and the way you are doing it is another. I use large self-built closed chambers. You hear all these threats of impending doom, how they need lots of ventilation, how they will get respiratory infections with any humidity, and shell rot on damp substrate, how soaking too often makes them not digest their food and can upset their "water balance"… Its all false. Hogwash. Untrue. Incorrect. Wrong. And the people spouting this info have no idea what they are talking about. Ask any of them how many times they've attempted to do it the way I outline baby care. Zero. Not once. Ask me how many times I tried it their way in decades past… Loads of times, and it fails every single time. I post pic after pic of my smooth growing, healthy, thriving babies and I ask them: Where is the shell rot? Where is the RI? Where is the pyramiding that is so visible on their tortoises? If daily soaks are so bad, why are they all thriving and growing. Why are the adults that I raised this way years ago producing clutch after clutch of healthy thriving babies? After raising literally several hundred babies of several species this way, why am I not seeing the problems they foretell? Further, why am I seeing the exact opposite of their prognostications in every single baby I raise this way? I either get no response, personal emotion driven attacks, or I get irrelevant explanations of what they speculate might be happening in the wild where these tortoises come from, based on weather station data from open areas that are two meters above the ground. For some sort of personal reason, many of these people have to stick to their incorrect assertions, and repeated proof to the contrary with extensive explanation will not sway them. So they keep doing it the old, wrong way, and castigating others for not following suit. Its insanity!

2. Most of the commonly kept species are very adaptable when it comes to diet. There are many many ways to feed them and get proper nutrition into them. First and foremost, please read this next sentence carefully and let it sink in: "Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry." Tortoise not growing in bad conditions? No pyramiding. Tortoise being fed the wrong foods, but kept in warm humid monsoon conditions? No pyramiding. Slow growth or fast growth? Doesn't matter as long as the temperature, humidity, and hydration is correct. This has been proven with live breathing tortoises time and time again, thousands of times all over the world, yet we still have to argue against the old, out-dated, incorrect assumptions that were made decades ago and parroted ever since. I used to be one of those parrots, until the things I was parroting couldn't produce the results that were promised time and time again. I knew something wasn't right and it took two decades of failure to figure it out. But figure it out I did. Nobody else ever needs to go through two decades of failure to learn what I've learned over the last three decades. (Two decades of failure, and now one decade of success.) Seriously… this is so frustrating. Invite those FB people here, and let's have a conversation.

Grocery store greens are okay, but they typically: Lack calcium, have a low calcium to phosphorous ratio, and lack fiber. So if you must use grocery store greens, simply add some amendments. Use a tiny pinch of calcium powder one or twice a week. Add in some "herbal hay", or some blended up grass hay. Add in some of that sprouted grass from the little plots sold at grocery or pet stores. Soak a ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Chow, pellet and mix that in with the greens. You have different prepared foods over there in the UK than what we have here, but most prepared food have a good amount of fiber, so you can mix those in with the grocery store produce too. Yes, weeds, real grass, certain leaves, flowers and succulents are all the best foods, but those aren't always available to everyone at all times of the year. Everyone should strive to feed those foods as much as possible and practical, but the FACT is that our tortoises will survive and thrive on a multitude of different diet regimes. Learn about tortoise nutrition, grow your own foods when you can, offer a good variety, use store bought greens if needed, and do your best. Unless you are just dropping in romaine, cabbage, and fruit every day, your tortoise should be just fine. From the grocery store, favor endive and escarole as your dietary staples. And keep trying to introduce those weeds by mixing them in with other favorite foods. Tortoises can be stubborn and take a long time to accept new foods. Might take weeks or months. Don't give up.

3. I have been soaking babies of every species I work with daily for a decade now. Other people all over the world have been doing it too. I have two strong assertions to make about the practice:

1. It is good. It benefits the tortoise in every measurable way. It keeps them well hydrated, keeps their kidneys healthy and functioning, helps with digestion, helps with shell growth, gets them used to being handled, creates the opportunity for daily inspection of the baby tortoise's health and well being, and most of all, they THRIVE with a daily soaking routine.
2. It does no harm. If they don't need water that day, they don't have to drink in the soak. It still has all of the other benefits. Soaking does NOT hamper digestion in any way, cause shell rot, upset their "water balance" (Whatever that is…), or do any of the other harmful things that ignorant people report and parrot. Think about it… Wouldn't a guy who has been soaking hundreds of babies daily every year for 10 years have seen at least one of these purported problems. Wouldn't at least one single baby of mine have demonstrated at least some hint of one of these maladies? Yet just the opposite is true. 100% success and thriving with every single baby. I don't lose a percentage of babies each year and then tell people how some of them just weren't meant to survive… or some such non-sense. They ALL thrive and grow and look amazing. Thousands of other tortoise keepers all over the world report the same success. Ask a breeder who soaks once a week what percentage of their babies are still alive after 6 months…

I hope all of this helps, and you are welcome to question any or all of it. Take me to task and make me explain further. Make me back up every statement with evidence and explanation. Then ask the same of those who disagree. Ask me and them what experience we draw upon to make these assertions. Are these statements base on something read in a book or on the internet (FB group???), or are they based on first hand experience with hundreds of babies of several tortoise species and the very practices being discussed?

No one here will be angry with you for asking questions. We welcome it because the facts are on our side and we don't need a snotty or superior attitude, or emotional outbursts to shut people down and make them stop questioning our incorrect assertions.

 

[HollieK]

Thanks for your reply too! I'm probably going to stick to the forum tbh, I can't imagine how the groups I'm in would react to the fact that Flint is in an enclosed greenhouse. People mean well but they seem to be more familiar with Mediterranean species and apply their care requirements to other species too. I just think some people expect everybody do have access to the things that they do. I just can't find the stuff in my area that they can and sometimes I'm not able to fork out huge amounts of money for plants that I know will be gone within a day or two. I'm willing to spend the money, I just need something more sustainable which is why I'm trying to grow them myself which obviously takes time, especially since he's a leopard and he's going to need to eat through winter too. I just worry a lot about how I care for him as I don't want to be neglectful and others to think that I'm just taking the easy way out by buying some shop bought greens (I've seen it be called laziness ). I also want to be involved in the communities as they can be really nice and helpful, especially with plant ID's but sometimes they go a bit far under the guise of 'doing it for the tortoises'. I think I'll just mix in a few shop bought things on the days when weeds and flowers are a bit lacking, he does miss his chicory lol. I completely stopped buying shop stuff for a while as I was really worried after some posts I saw but as long as you guys think it'll be okay for him then that's okay with me.

Tbh Flint seems pretty happy with the changes I've made since getting him and the pyramiding he came with hasn't changed much in the few months I've had him. He seems a lot healthier in the humidity and heat that I've provided him with that the dry environment he spent his first few months in, he eats a lot more, he isn't as shy and he just generally seems quite happy. I think I'm just going to stick with what I've been doing unless I can find some other evidence as to why I shouldn't, I'm always willing to learn and change my care methods though so I'll keep scouring the internet forums for advice Thanks so much for your help though, I really appreciate it!

Quick question, I've been told to use calcium 5 times a week and Nutrobal the other two days, is that too much? Also do you know of any tortoise safe plants that would thrive in his type of enclosure? I tend to kill every plant I buy, even weeds and he eats at a pace I can't catch up to. You can probably tell I'm a worrier from this post and most of my previous ones but if I don't ask I'll just keep worrying lol.

 

[JoesMum]

A tiny pinch of calcium powder three times a week is more than enough. Sprinkle it as sparsely as you can or your tort will refuse to eat it otherwise.

You can give too much calcium - an overdose inhibits the uptake of other minerals... and can cause stones in the urinary system.

These people excel at bad advice Don't soak them and give them too much calcium... @Anyfoot was talking about this the other day.

If you fancy a chat about random things, why not pop into the Cold Dark Room thread?. We're a friendly, occasionally (some would say regularly) potty bunch, in there
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/cold-dark-room.123941

 

[Tom]

Quick question, I've been told to use calcium 5 times a week and Nutrobal the other two days, is that too much? Also do you know of any tortoise safe plants that would thrive in his type of enclosure? I tend to kill every plant I buy, even weeds and he eats at a pace I can't catch up to. You can probably tell I'm a worrier from this post and most of my previous ones but if I don't ask I'll just keep worrying lol.

Yes, I think supplements 7 days a week is way too much. Especially if you are feeding a good diet with weeds, grass and lots of variety. I like the routine of twice a week for a little bit of calcium and once a week for vitamins. To be honest, I frequently forget to use any supplementation at all because my tortoises get sunshine, a weedy diet and Mazuri on a regular basis. Not everyone needs to use food supplements, but supplements are good in the right quantities and in the right situations.

I've not had much success with indoor plants. They either get eaten, trampled or find a reason to die. Other people would be better to advise on that topic.

 

[HollieK]

Thanks to both of you! It's probably a good thing that I forget to use the supplements most days. Hopefully he'll be a lot happier now with a little extra variety to bulk out the weeds and flowers and a lot less calcium lol.