Lightweight substrate options

[Tort25]

Hi

Im getting my russian tortoise a 6 foot by 3 foot gardenbed as a enclosure. I need to put this enclosure on a 2nd floor so it can't be heavy. I was thinking all coco coir but I heard it can cause my tortoise irritation and orchid bark is too expensive. Let me know what substrate i should use or is all coco coir ok?

Thanks!

 

[COmtnLady]

Try looking at garden centers for Fine Orchid/Fir Bark (be sure to read all the stuff on the labels to make sure there isn't any fertilizer or insecticide, perlite, vermiculite, or other "additives"). Its cheaper there than at pet shops. Check online, too. Sometimes you can find a good deal that way.

You could also check into Cypress Mulch. I dislike the smell of it and prefer the Orchid Bark, but lots of members use the Cypress Mulch.

I use about four inches of coco coir on the bottom with four inches of bark on top of it. The bark keeps the coir from becoming "dusty", or from being walked into food and water dishes. And, if you keep the lowest inch of coco coir wet, it makes maintaining humidity much simpler.

You can use only coco coir, but the top layer will dry out and be a bit messy. If it gets too dry it can cause respiratory irritation. You don't want to spray, mist, or fog in an attempt to keep the surface damp enough to avoid such because those methods also can cause respiratory problems. They create droplets not humidity, which are too large for your tortoise to breathe, plus it creates an evaporative cycle that cools things down similar to the way a swamp cooler works.

How old/what size is your Russian? 6' x 3' is small for an adult. 4' x 8' is generally considered the minimum for an adult.




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[Tort25]

Try looking at garden centers for Fine Orchid/Fir Bark (be sure to read all the stuff on the labels to make sure there isn't any fertilizer or insecticide, perlite, vermiculite, or other "additives"). Its cheaper there than at pet shops. Check online, too. Sometimes you can find a good deal that way.

You could also check into Cypress Mulch. I dislike the smell of it and prefer the Orchid Bark, but lots of members use the Cypress Mulch.

I use about four inches of coco coir on the bottom with four inches of bark on top of it. The bark keeps the coir from becoming "dusty", or from being walked into food and water dishes. And, if you keep the lowest inch of coco coir wet, it makes maintaining humidity much simpler.

You can use only coco coir, but the top layer will dry out and be a bit messy. If it gets too dry it can cause respiratory irritation. You don't want to spray, mist, or fog in an attempt to keep the surface damp enough to avoid such because those methods also can cause respiratory problems. They create droplets not humidity, which are too large for your tortoise to breathe, plus it creates an evaporative cycle that cools things down similar to the way a swamp cooler works.

How old/what size is your Russian? 6' x 3' is small for an adult. 4' x 8' is generally considered the minimum for an adult.




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Hi i have a male roughly 6 year old tortoise and I did look into 4'x8" but I heard 6'x3' is also acceptable. Thanks for the advice

 

[Tom]

Hi i have a male roughly 6 year old tortoise and I did look into 4'x8" but I heard 6'x3' is also acceptable. Thanks for the advice

I don't know where you heard that, but it's incorrect. 4x8 is a minimum. Larger is better. All tortoises, but Russians especially, really need room to roam in their enclosures. This is much easer to do outdoors whenever possible. When keeping them confined in small quarters, bladder stones, constipation, and chronic stress all become more likely.

The weight of the substrate shouldn't matter. You can carry it up in bags or buckets, not in the enclosure. The weight of your substrate comes from the water you put in it to maintain the correct moisture levels and humidity. Keep it dry until you get it upstairs and in the enclosure, and then add your water as needed.

If you can't find it cheaper, you can get the 24 quart bags of orchid bark on Chewy or Petco.com fairly cheap compared to pet store prices, and even cheaper if you buy it during a sale. Once nice thing about the orchid bark is that it lasts for years if you spot clean it and soak the tortoise regularly, as you should. They usually pee and poo in the soaking water, and this keeps the enclosure relatively "clean". Remove leftover food daily, and your expensive substrate will last a long time.

 

[Tort25]

I don't know where you heard that, but it's incorrect. 4x8 is a minimum. Larger is better. All tortoises, but Russians especially, really need room to roam in their enclosures. This is much easer to do outdoors whenever possible. When keeping them confined in small quarters, bladder stones, constipation, and chronic stress all become more likely.

The weight of the substrate shouldn't matter. You can carry it up in bags or buckets, not in the enclosure. The weight of your substrate comes from the water you put in it to maintain the correct moisture levels and humidity. Keep it dry until you get it upstairs and in the enclosure, and then add your water as needed.

If you can't find it cheaper, you can get the 24 quart bags of orchid bark on Chewy or Petco.com fairly cheap compared to pet store prices, and even cheaper if you buy it during a sale. Once nice thing about the orchid bark is that it lasts for years if you spot clean it and soak the tortoise regularly, as you should. They usually pee and poo in the soaking water, and this keeps the enclosure relatively "clean". Remove leftover food daily, and your expensive substrate will last a long time.

Hi Tom!

Thanks for letting me know i need a larger enclosure ill be sure to get a larger one. The reason the substrate has to be lighter is because i have to put the enclosure on the 2nd floor of my house and as i know my floor won't safely support more than around 600-700 pounds safely. And just to clarify you think i should do all orchid bark?

Thanks for your advice

 

[Tort25]

Try looking at garden centers for Fine Orchid/Fir Bark (be sure to read all the stuff on the labels to make sure there isn't any fertilizer or insecticide, perlite, vermiculite, or other "additives"). Its cheaper there than at pet shops. Check online, too. Sometimes you can find a good deal that way.

You could also check into Cypress Mulch. I dislike the smell of it and prefer the Orchid Bark, but lots of members use the Cypress Mulch.

I use about four inches of coco coir on the bottom with four inches of bark on top of it. The bark keeps the coir from becoming "dusty", or from being walked into food and water dishes. And, if you keep the lowest inch of coco coir wet, it makes maintaining humidity much simpler.

You can use only coco coir, but the top layer will dry out and be a bit messy. If it gets too dry it can cause respiratory irritation. You don't want to spray, mist, or fog in an attempt to keep the surface damp enough to avoid such because those methods also can cause respiratory problems. They create droplets not humidity, which are too large for your tortoise to breathe, plus it creates an evaporative cycle that cools things down similar to the way a swamp cooler works.

How old/what size is your Russian? 6' x 3' is small for an adult. 4' x 8' is generally considered the minimum for an adult.




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After alot or recerch I think cypress mulch will be my best bet cost and weight wise thanks!

 

[Tom]

And just to clarify you think i should do all orchid bark?

Orchid bark is my preferred substrate for most tortoise needs, including adult Russians.

 

[Tort25]

Orchid bark is my preferred substrate for most tortoise needs, including adult Russians.

Thanks!

 

[COmtnLady]

FYI - Orchid Bark has smaller more rounded off pieces with no stringy fibers, Cypress usually has some fairly pointed pieces (think stabby splinters) and it smells like a swamp.

I tried it early on and ended up throwing it away, so it didn't end up being cheaper when it was 100% wasted.

 

[Tort25]

FYI - Orchid Bark has smaller more rounded off pieces with no stringy fibers, Cypress usually has some fairly pointed pieces (think stabby splinters) and it smells like a swamp.

I tried it early on and ended up throwing it away, so it didn't end up being cheaper when it was 100% wasted.

Tanks for letting me know but I my current situation i can't afford that much orchid bark and cypress mulch is wayyy cheaper in my current situation ill be sure to try to remove any stabby bits and I'll make a post when the enclosure is all together and if I can afford it later I'll be sure to get orchid bark.

Thanks

 

[COmtnLady]

You didn't ask for this, but since you are setting up from the floor up, here is how to start a good substrate that will hold humidity evenly and with a lot less brain-damage.
Make sure your enclosure is lined/sealed so that it can't leak water anywhere.

I buy the coco coir in the 3-brick packages which are a little cheaper and store more easily than the loose type. I do NOT buy the loose stuff because it is harder to get it to hold the water initially and it seems to dry out again quicker, plus there is a "dusty" factor when you try to get it damp (that can cause you to cough like a fool for a bit - think what dusty coco coir does to the poor tortoises who are trying to live on it only!). It will also take as much, quantity-wise, so you would have to buy more packages of the loose stuff to have the same amount as the bricks. It also takes up a lot more space to store it in loose form.

Then I use a very clean, definitely does not have any soap or other type of residue, five gallon bucket (I have two five gallon buckets dedicated to only tortoise substrate, nothing else).
Fill it about 2/3 full of warm water and submerge one of the bricks. Allow it to soak until it has completely fallen apart, with no hard lumps left. You may have to add more water if it expands above the waterline.

Hand-wring-out as much of the water as possible and pack it tightly into the bottom of the enclosure. Begin at one end and work your way to the other end, so that you can see if you got enough of the water out. You don't want standing water visible, especially not when you are finished.

Pack the coco coir about two or three inches deep. (I like deeper, but this will do for most situations.)

Next put a two to three inch layer of Orchid Bark/Fir Bark on top and pat it down a little - this doesn't have to be packed as firmly as the coco coir, but pat it down until it feels even and solid. Some use Cypress Mulch instead, but I don't care for the swampy smell of the Cyprus Mulch and the stringy fibers and pointy pieces have the potential to cause health problems.

Close your enclosure up tight and let it acclimate for several hours or a day, then measure the humidity and heat. If it is too humid when you check, vent it for a day or more until it is in the range that's best for you tortoise with the lid closed.

Once its stable, put your tortoise into its new home.

 

[Tort25]

You didn't ask for this, but since you are setting up from the floor up, here is how to start a good substrate that will hold humidity evenly and with a lot less brain-damage.
Make sure your enclosure is lined/sealed so that it can't leak water anywhere.

Thanks! Do you think I should do all 100% Cypress mulch or all coco coir i haven't bought my substrate yet and would like your opinion

Thanks!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Since I don't personally like Cypress Mulch - and literally threw it away within a week of investing in it for my enclosure (I live on Social Security, throwing away that much money was harsh), I have a REALLY hard time telling you what to do about it. Most people who use it have bigger tortoises, and even they get poked and jabbed, causing cuts, scrapes, and more. I apologize for even bringing it up as a possibility, I wasn't thinking about you having a Russian, only thinking of the three best options for substrate in general. Sorry.

If I was cash-strapped and couldn't do it right from the start, I would only get the coco coir (being careful NOT to get anything with "Husk", chips, or fibrous threads/stringy stuff in it because tortoises try to eat things and the threads/fibers/strings can wrap around portions of their intestines, or block the intestines, which means high vet bills or a dead tortoise).

I would get the Coir first, because you can easily put a layer of the fir bark on top as soon as you can afford it. You will have to watch closely because Russians have short legs and live close to the surface, thus will inhale some and swallow some. Since the Coir is very fine there isn't a heck of a lot that can be done to stop that - do NOT spray, mist, or fog in an attempt to keep the surface damp as spraying, misting, or fogging WILL cause respiratory infections. If he inhales the coir for too many weeks it can cause respiratory infections. Usually only tropical species do ok on plain Coir for any length of time and that is just because their humidity needs to be 85-90% all the time. The other problem with the top of the substrate being damp all the time is there is nowhere where your Russian can get away from the dampness, and that can encourage shell fungus. (which is easy to cure, just use athlete's foot cream from the Dollar Store but why cause a problem when you don't need to).

Did you look at Wal-Mart's garden area? They do carry Orchid Bark (sometimes called Fir Bark) cheaper than pet stores (but also are inclined to have the brands with fertilizers and such mixed in so you have to read the labels carefully), but it is considered seasonal and won't be available for the entire year. Check with ACE Hardware, too, same thing with seasonal.

Do NOT get anything with cedar in it - that can kill a tortoise. And don't get anything that has other types of pines (too sticky/resinous and also some varieties can make your tortoise sick).


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FYI -


I trust Tom 100%. If he says its the way to do something, believe him.
He has a ranch in California, raises a bazillion kinds of critters, has cared for and about tortoises for most of his life, and trains animals for Movies and TV shows. (He had dogs in Walking Dead and a racoon in a Superstore episode.) There are commercials and other shows, but that's all that's coming to mind at the moment.)

He has taken clutches of eggs, separated half and half to try different methods on one while keeping the other "as usual". He can give you data and outcomes for at least eight different species of torts. He raises huge Sulcatas, several types of Stars, a bunch of unique species, plus trains dogs and birds, and has bunches of other kinds of reptiles and more. He knows his stuff.

Yvonne G has more experience than any ten others here. But she's in her 80s and is slowing down. She ran a rescue for damaged torts and turtles for decades and knows all kinds of tricks to get them to take meds or let you trim a beak or whatever. She's brilliant!

Zovick is a retired dentist and the one to go to if concerned about specific medical stuff. He knows the chemical make-ups of meds and which injections are a no-no. (There is an antibiotic - Baytril (enrofloxacin) - that if given as an injection kills the cells it touches and causes serious probs at the injection site in torts, but can be given orally safely. It doesn't seem to affect mammals this way and most Vets don't know not to Rx it as injections). He's raised a LOT of tortoises so knows "conditions".

ZeroPilot is another of the "old members" that knows his stuff. He raises RedFoots - but he and Tom disagree on a couple points, so its good to see what each says and then do what you think is best.

Alex and the RedFoot is from Europe, but is the one to go to about lighting. I think she goes to University or teaches at one, I'm not completely sure about which, BUT - is very scientifically oriented and is always posting interesting really deep articles with stats and footnoted. 'Can talk of how many inches from shell or substrate and how many watts or whatever. Also is pretty good about foods.

The_Four_Toed_Edward is from Finland and is great to talk about Russians with. She also knows quite a bit about foods and general housing.

LittleRedFootBigRedHeart is amazing. She's only been doing tortoise-y things for a couple years but jumped in with both feet. She was frustrated trying to find info on this site and gathered all sorts of info from the threads, then created wonderful pages with pics of exactly what is right or wrong to use. Within a year she was a total pro. (But as with me, if its something tricky ask the "big dogs". She and I know enough to help in a lot of areas, but, have never hatched out any babies or had to deal with a tort that has been seriously hurt by a dog or car, etc..)






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Same goes for me, I have no experience on breeding or serious injuries. But I do have experience with some "less serious" medical problems like bladder stones or constipation.

My forte is Russians but I can also advise on other testudo species as far as their care overlaps. I have no experience of my own on tropical species and they are very rare here in Finland. I know there are some leopard tortoises but as for other tropical species I don't know how common they are. And turtles are out of the range of my knowledge.