Mazuri questions

[Alaskamike]

Okay. I'm going to beg to differ here on the vit D overdose issue.

I suppose this COULD be an issue if you fed ONLY Mazuri to your tortoise. But I know of no one doing that. Not even Zoos that use it allot.

As part of a varied diet I can't see a problem. Vit D overdose is extremely rare and would require a massive amount.

But like the concerns over GMO produced foods , herbal remedies, vegetarian diets for omnivores , even store bought organic spring mix, it is controversial.

Like a calcium powder , all things in moderation appear to provide the best overall health. In people as well as our torts.

I feed my sulcata , leopard, and aldabra some Mazuri several times a week. They free graze most everything else. I have no issues with it and would hate to see people freak out about the remote possibility of d3 overdose without just cause.

 

[domalle]

Okay. I'm going to beg to differ here on the vit D overdose issue.

I suppose this COULD be an issue if you fed ONLY Mazuri to your tortoise. But I know of no one doing that. Not even Zoos that use it allot.

As part of a varied diet I can't see a problem. Vit D overdose is extremely rare and would require a massive amount.

But like the concerns over GMO produced foods , herbal remedies, vegetarian diets for omnivores , even store bought organic spring mix, it is controversial.

Like a calcium powder , all things in moderation appear to provide the best overall health. In people as well as our torts.

I feed my sulcata , leopard, and aldabra some Mazuri several times a week. They free graze most everything else. I have no issues with it and would hate to see people freak out about the remote possibility of d3 overdose without just cause.

Agreed varied diet and all things in moderation. The moderation rule doesn't apply to meth and heroin though.
Excess D3 is stored in body fat. Effects of overdose are not immediately apparent, develop over time, and are irreversible.
But like most things, it all depends on what level of risk you are willing to undertake with your animals.
This seems an unnecessary one.

 

[SteveW]

Agreed varied diet and all things in moderation. The moderation rule doesn't apply to meth and heroin though.
Excess D3 is stored in body fat. Effects of overdose are not immediately apparent, develop over time, and are irreversible.
But like most things, it all depends on what level of risk you are willing to undertake with your animals.
This seems an unnecessary one.

You know, insufficient Vit D is also not immediately apparent, develops over time and is irreversible. Also seems to be a lot more common. Supplementation may have elements of risk but given the prevalence of MBD, seems like a necessary one.
As an aside, if a diet is supplemented appropriately, Vit D biosynthesis (i.e. From UVB) will not cause an overdose.

 

[domalle]

You know, insufficient Vit D is also not immediately apparent, develops over time and is irreversible. Also seems to be a lot more common. Supplementation may have elements of risk but given the prevalence of MBD, seems like a necessary one.
As an aside, if a diet is supplemented appropriately, Vit D biosynthesis (i.e. From UVB) will not cause an overdose.

OK so we are back to "if a diet is supplemented appropriately" and whatever that means to a novice petkeeper.
Routine use of foods that contain D3 when animals are outside in natural sunlight is contraindicated.
Routine use of supplementation is fine if not overdone.
And now we are back to what does 'overdone' mean.
'Overdose of Vitamin D related to cat food ingestion in a red-footed tortoise resulted in fatality
due to generalized mineralization, especially of oviducts and urinary bladder'.
And you would think that an omnivorous species like a redfoot could handle it better than the typical
herbivorous tortoises kept by many on the forum who seem to use the products freely.
But given that outside analysis of these artificial products reveals that few actually contain
the ingredients and/or the percentages claimed on packaging, we are probably arguing in circles.
Not worth the risk.

 

[SteveW]

OK so we are back to "if a diet is supplemented appropriately" and whatever that means to a novice petkeeper .

Hmmm. According to the label, Mazuri recommends feeding 2-4% of body weight. Given a 1000gr redfoot, that's 30 gr of food. The Vit D is listed at .942 IU/kg or .000942 IU/gr. For the hypothetical redfoot, that's. .02826 IU. For a human, Vit D toxicity is in excess of 10,000 IU. Given a median human weight of say, 80,000 gr, toxicity is seen at a concentration on .111 IU/gr. Or approximate 10x the level experienced by the aforementioned redfoot. Relevant to mention is that 30 grams is about 25 pieces of Mazuri. If that is not a satisfactory margin of safety, go to every other day and it's 1/20 the human toxicity level. Cut the amount in half (which is still a lot) go to three times a week feedings and the toxicity level is conservatively over 50 times higher than being provided. Worth mentioning is that similar toxic levels are noted in the tested mammals as well as birds.
While this may not be a worthwhile risk for you, I'm sure you can see why some may find it a very reasonable dietary supplement.

 

[domalle]

Hmmm. According to the label, Mazuri recommends feeding 2-4% of body weight. Given a 1000gr redfoot, that's 30 gr of food. The Vit D is listed at .942 IU/kg or .000942 IU/gr. For the hypothetical redfoot, that's. .02826 IU. For a human, Vit D toxicity is in excess of 10,000 IU. Given a median human weight of say, 80,000 gr, toxicity is seen at a concentration on .111 IU/gr. Or approximate 10x the level experienced by the aforementioned redfoot. Relevant to mention is that 30 grams is about 25 pieces of Mazuri. If that is not a satisfactory margin of safety, go to every other day and it's 1/20 the human toxicity level. Cut the amount in half (which is still a lot) go to three times a week feedings and the toxicity level is conservatively over 50 times higher than being provided. Worth mentioning is that similar toxic levels are noted in the tested mammals as well as birds.
While this may not be a worthwhile risk for you, I'm sure you can see why some may find it a very reasonable dietary supplement.

OK despite the snow job, math wizard, and I say this with all good intention and humor, how many people do you think follow directions
with your informed specificity? And I always have to wonder with advocates for this product, do they have any vested interest and
would they divulge it?
I choose not to use it and do not recommend it. Why does that always seem to rile its defenders so?

 

[SteveW]

OK despite the snow job, math wizard, and I say this with all good intention and humor, how many people do you think follow directions
with your informed specificity? And I always have to wonder with advocates for this product, do they have any vested interest and
would they divulge it?
I choose not to use it and do not recommend it. Why does that always seem to rile its defenders so?

You've got me all wrong. I'm not a math wiz, not an advocate (I hardly ever use it, prefer Zoo med among prepared foods) nor am I riled. If you think the above is a 'snow job', double check my math, I showed my work.
And no, I'm not making any money here, so no vested interest. If you don't use it or recommend it, more power to you.
My contention was and is that you were asserting a hazard that neither anecdotal evidence or dose calculations support. Not an attack, just hoping for clarity.