Mix?

[JustAnja]

Im just looking for more opinions here. He was purchased as a Western, but I am new to Hermanns and didnt know what to look for at the time. Apparently he shows characteristics of both.

[IMG=640x480]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/hisdsrtrose/torts/96ecf7b2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG=640x480]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/hisdsrtrose/torts/f8f36cdc.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG=640x480]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/hisdsrtrose/torts/b3750f84.jpg[/IMG]

I cant remember the breeders name in FL, but was informed she has added in an Eastern male to her Western group for some reason. I dont know.

 

[T-P]

Hey your tortoise is beautiful.
it is a THB (Testudo hermanni boettgeri)...and is male.
And has a slight form of pyramidding.
Cna be anumber of factors.
the tortoise pictured is he your tortoise? he looks like my tortoise daisy except larger.

 

[JustAnja]

Yes this is my tortoise. I recognized the mild pyramiding as well when I picked him up. He is 2.5 years old. So definitely Eastern huh? EgyptianDan said he thought he might be a mix of the two. Im working on his diet as well to try and improve the pyramiding.

 

[T-P]

ALSO, eastern and western hermanns cannot live together.
Even though they are hermanns the easter (THB) and the wester (THH) are 2 different tortoises

 

[HermanniChris]

Yep he's a definite Eastern Hermann's (Testudo hermanni boettgeri).

Hybrids or "mixes" between both subspecies of hermann's tortoises are actually pretty common. There is a certain breeder in the USA that sells them almost every year. I have a hybrid myself and have worked with several of them over the years. It is definitely not recommended to keep both subspecies togther and I always keep them separated but if they are kept together they will most definitely breed and then you'll end up with hybrids. Hybrids are typically frowned upon but they sometimes just happen. The problem with hermann's tortoises is that people already have a hard enough time differentiating the 2 subspecies and hybrids only add to the mess.

To sum it up, yes they are out there but they are a problem to an extent so it's just best to keep the subspecies separate as with any species of tortoise.:shy:

 

[HermanniChris]

also now that you mentioned the breeder was in Florida, I know EXACTLY who you are talking about and yes they are the ones responsible for quite a few of the hybrids floating around....

 

[JustAnja]

OK so I just need to start looking for some Eastern girlys for this fella. Thanks for your input Chris, I was hoping you would have an answer.

 

[T-P]

Hybrids are still wrong in my eyes.

 

[egyptiandan]

Hi Anja,
It is definately a cross. Chris this came from you know who in Florida originally. She has since sold the group to someone in Georgia who are still breeding crosses. I saw them at the National Breeders Expo in Daytona this past August and checked out all the hatchlings. They were definately crosses.
I also have one of her crosses.

Danny

 

[HermanniChris]

yep you're 100% right Dan.....it's a shame, I have 2 of her crosses as well. I also have a funny story for you regarding this ....

 

[JustAnja]

Hi Dan,

I wasnt doubting what you had told me, just wanted more input on it ya know. This is all new to me. Thanks to both of you.

 

[Josh]

are these the only species that hybridize?

 

[T-P]

I think so josh, im often baffled by hermanns breeding with each other.
Even though theyre not ment to live together, and not breed when they do the babies are always healthy cuz their care is identicle, and they are both hermanns.

But what i dont get is, a yellow foot couldnt breed with a redfoot, nor could a greek breed with an ibera.
even though theyre both seen as spurthighs.

 

[Jacqui]

I thought redfoots could breed with yellowfoots?

 

[Rees2]

I think T-P meens in the wild those can not breed together in the wild so it's just wrong.

 

[HermanniChris]

Hybrids are a bit more common than one may think. There are several crosses between many of the mediterranean tortoises out there. There are records and proof of Testudo marginata and Testudo ibera breeding as well as Testudo marginata and Testudo hermanni boettgeri breeding. Many forms of the greek tortoises breeding with each other is considered to be a big reason for the mass confusion surrounding the graecas or "greeks". The problems began when the Europeans would trade tortoises decades ago thus leading to the release of different subspecies into another species' range. This would in return cause natural cross breeding. Many species of turtles and tortoises naturally cross breed because their ranges overlap. This is common with several of the North American Box Turtles and Painted Turtles, and even more common with many species of slider and cooter. Crosses between The North American Wood Turtle and the Blanding's Turtle are clearly noted in many photo gallerys on the net and a new hybrid which is the North American Wood Turtle and the Western/Pacific Pond Turtle has just come into play. Don't forget that there are also Bog Turtle/Spotted Turtle hybrids as well, but these are very rare and very frowned upon due to the the Bog turtle's endangered status. To narrow it down, yes tortoises can and do cross breed on more occassions than you think, even Leopards and Sulcattas but when it comes to promoting this kind of thing, it is simply not a good idea. While many of the mediterranean tortoises can actually create hybrids on their own in the wild, it's something we should not practice in captivity. So can it be done? Yes. Should it be done? No.

-Chris

 

[T-P]

wow

 

[Jacqui]

Very interesting HermanniChris, thanks so much for that informative post. I knew of several of the crosses but not the Bog/Spotted. I had heard of the sulcatta/leopard one, but also have not been able to see a picture of it. Do you happen to know any sites which show pictures of either of these crosses? Would like to see just what they turn out like.

I also agree crossing on purpose or allowing captives to "accidentally" breed is not a good thing. Too many long range health problems may happen, not to mention the confusion and possible genetic contamination of some of the rarer species. Plus like stated with the Bog, your taking a female breeder out of commission for future breeding in her own species with the fact of how long the sperm from the male she was mixed with might hang around.

Unfortunately if money gets involved, the crosses will become more common. We already have folks purposely breeding eyeless RES and the like. I am sure these animals would become the hot item wave of the future.

 

[Rees2]

Are they relly eyeless?I doubt it but I want to be sure.So this statement should be made DO NOT MIX SPECIES.

 

[Jacqui]

Turtlesale.com I believe is who has them and yes they are breed to not have eyes.