mixing species?

[Kapidolo Farms]

what about the new sulcata/ leopard mix?

It's a big specific question.

Wild caught or otherwise well exposed to various things over a long history of life would tend to indicate the same issues as mixing species that do not have any biogeographic overlap. Its a conservative measure based on your not knowing what their exact history has been.

If you got, what are could be thought of as sterile hatchlings, never exposed to any other species, and there was a huge amount of space it might be an OK risk.

The over-riding thought though is why risk it?

I have seen sulcatas and leopards in enclosures that were huge, hundreds of feet by hundreds of feet, think of the images Aldabraman shows for his tortoises. All is good until someone starts mating, and then the male of the same as well as the male of the other species comes over and gets into an altercation.

This point in time altercation can become a habit that occurs more and more frequently even if no mating is going on, then you have to separate. Now think about albadramans huge area again, and fill it with fountains of grass, logs and tortoise-line of sight disruptions and it can be workable long term, ad berms and hills, and dense plantings and it becomes more manageable.

But now you have a huge area with alot of gardening to do too. The overriding hesitation for this line of response is that most people seem to be good intentioned and set out to do all this, then don't and fall back to well, they said this and they said that, and it didn't work so it's not my fault.

In short, anything YOU do with captive animals is YOUR Fault or Success depending on the outcome. So the best and easiest resolve is to not suggest risky husbandry. Mixing species is risky, mixing individuals is risky. The risks have been explained ad nauseum.

Will

 

[jtrux]

Ok, since this is just a debate and not intended to hurt feelings, i'll throw something in there.

And i'm not picking sides...just saying what I heard recently.

In regards to mixing species and the transmission of pathogens between species this is what my girlfriend and I talked about.

Before I start i'll say this...she is a biologist for the military and primarily does trauma research on mice, rats, pigs, and I think several other mammals.

She has a degree in cellular mollecular biology and has published countless papers on animal studies.

So what she said is this...as far as keeping different species together, if you're worried about spreading pathogens between species and you just intend to have tortoises outside in different pens, albeit seperate pens, then you might as well just keep them together. At her work the different animal rooms (rats, mice, pigs, monkeys, etc) are kept very seperate from one another. In order to go from one room to the next you must: change clothes, take a shower, wear little covers on your feet, walk on some sticky pad outside the door....all kinds of precautions. This is all to ensure that pathogens are not being transmitted on your body into the room. Every container, food dish, etc, etc is sterilized in an autoclave (basically an oven) before reuse or it's just thrown away and a new one is used.

Unless you're going through this much trouble she said it's basically useless to try and keep them seperate if you're only reason is pathogen transmission. As far as behavior and husbandry requirements are concerned, that's a whole different story.

Tom, I understand from some previous posts in different threads that you take a lot of precautions and that just might be enough but to the everyday person who just keeps animals seperate and doesn't follow a very stringent sterilization process between animals and enclosures, merely keeping animals seperate is not enough.

Like I stated before, i'm not here to pick sides, just stating what my girlfriend said.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

jtrux,

Did your girlfriend also mention that those precautions are used between "barriers", one part of a vivarium to another as those animals are pathogen naive, and/or specifically bred to have no immune system at all, that the stocking rate can be as high as 5 mice in a box that is about 7 inches by 12 inches, so high a density that it is cleaned at least twice a week, and by cleaned I mean the animals are transfered to a new box after is has been sterilized, not sanitized mind you, but sterilized in an autoclave.

It's the difference between a general ward in a hospital and a ward for the immune-suppressed. The nurses use a different protocol and are not mixing "stuff" between patients. Further evidence of the outside and pathogens not jumping a few feet is done everyday by ill people going to zoos, and watching the apes, and monkeys across moats of ten or 20 feet.

Did your girlfriend further tell you that the air is turned over several times a day through filters, and UV sanitized for super immune suppressed animals, sorta like all the air outside with sunlight UV?

The cross over is that many tortoises are indeed "specific pathogen free" like those lab mice, and when you mix species thet are naive to those specific pathogens that may be common in another species, they get sick and die as a result.

She may have told you also that when changing those mouse boxes she must use sterile tools, re-sterilized between boxes, all under a hood, as those mice are so fragile that even the anti-body of one SPF animal can trigger a death in another which can destroy a long term study.

You may also recall that at least some people here on the TFO suggest using gloves when handling their animals, and changing gloves, to spray their shoes with a disinfectant, when walking from one outside enclosure to another.

The congestion of tools, animals and the fact that your girlfriend may handle 5,000 mice in one day is why that higher level of biosecurity is used.

If you have three enclosures outside, and enter one after the other, with a footbath/spray etc. You are more covered than all that intense protocol. Exposure to air, non immune response animals and exposure to sun duplicate many of those bio-security protocols in a lab animal facility. Ask your girlfriend if the use UVC to sterilize hoods, or rooms, outside the sun does it non-stop (during the day).

When people have animal rooms at home and are careless when working their animals, then I would tend to agree with your girlfriend.

Inside is very different than outside, and many times it is a suggested practice to use a biosecurity system at home with mixed species rooms or collections, not just individuals enclosures.

Post/link a pdf of her work, if it is relevant to biosecurity.

Will

 

[Tom]

I think Will said it better than I possibly could.

I would add the different pathogens are transmitted in different ways. Some pathogens are transmitted on clothes or in the air. Others are transmitted only by direct contact with bodily fluids. Some are transmitted by eggs, or encysted ova. As Will stated, direct sunshine kills a lot of these things and so does desiccation. As an example, I can drive down into Los Angeles for a job and my dog can pick up fleas. I drive home and the adult fleas might survive for a week or two at most, but any eggs they lay don't hatch or the larvae don't survive. Eventually any adults that hitchhiked up drop off and die. We use no flea products of any kind up here. Obviously this is an insect, but it serves as an example of the outdoor environment killing off unwanted nasties. The exotic animal vet that I spent two years with at school taught us that in most cases a six foot air barrier, a foot bath, hand washing, and dedicated tools and bowls are all that is needed to prevent disease transmission from one enclosure to another. I am not advocating lab-like sterility between enclosures and the pathogens that I am concerned about do not require sterile conditions. I have seen side by side glass enclosures where the tortoises in one were diseased and their next door neighbors were not. Only after moving a healthy one into the sick enclosure did any symptoms show up and it took about two weeks. The other ones continued on disease free and never showed any symptoms.

There are A LOT of potential pathogens and there are many means of transmission.

BTW, my wife has a masters in Microbiology and she has signed off on my post here.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The snapping turtle comment led me to think, we do this all the time with turtles. I suppose the possible contaminates are different, being that so many species live so closely in the wild? I keep cooters, sliders, snappers all together and have never had any issues. I know many, many keepers that mix turtle species...Just interesting, the difference.

Fully aquatics from the same watershed, or adjacent watersheds seem to do OK with each other.

The real busters of the whole mixed species/pathogen issue are those "semi-aquatics" they are the real tricky ones. And I'll further dodge this by saying REDFOOTSRULE, that you have gone off topic ;-),

I don't don't do aquatics at home, nor semi's. Just the torts.

Will

 

[jtrux]

Hell, I have no idea, I asked her a quick question and got a quick answer. I'm no biologist and don't wanna be one lol

 

[Nay]

Hi there,
As we learn more and more, (hopefully) I will say I think the practice of mixing species is probably not the best for torts.
That being said,I had 2 pets of mine together for many years.(Over 10) (Prior to internet is my best excuse) I joined up here and 'learned' that was not a good idea. So I tried to do the 'right 'thing and separated my two mixed species. (Jack and Louise) for three or 4 days I watched misery in 2 torts.
Neither would eat,both would pace their enclosures. I was torn between doing the right thing and doing what my gut said. I posted my concerns, and as you may guess, got a varitiy of responses, and also 'met' a number of great people on this forum. Some sending me videos of mixed species that should not be together. The one I loved and had never seen was this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Kc2y-geiU

I decided that if these 2 wanted to share their lives I was not going to change anything. I put them back together and they immediately went to eating. Jacks about a 14 lb RF and Louise is around 1 lb Ornate. He has never mounted her, as far as I can tell, and they used to be just in my living room in a pool for many years. Now thanks to this forum I have a huge out door enclosure with running water and many plants, protected by hot wire.I will see them under the hide together with his head resting on her back, many times. I do believe they like to be together, they have plenty of space to be apart, and there are 2 large dog house type hides. but most often when they are resting they are together.
I love this place to learn and know my case and a few others are the exception. I am throwing this out there to just break up this little debate. There are reasons things can be done, but the question is should they?.
Thanks for all your advise..

Here's how I find them alot..

And one other thing, can you notice how Jacks carapace is smoother 5 years later....That's thanks to TFO!!! (I also know pyramiding doesn't go away, but it sure seems to seem less pronounced..)
Nay

 

[Tom]

Hell, I have no idea, I asked her a quick question and got a quick answer. I'm no biologist and don't wanna be one lol

Now you've got me laughing... I can just hear your tone of voice and slight Texas twang as you say this....

I'm glad you are here man. Pease stick around.

---

Nay, your example is noted, and there are many others like it. Nobody is arguing whether or not it is physically possible to put two different species together and have everything be okay. We all know it can. The question is whether or not it SHOULD be done. For every case like yours where the animals didn't get sick and/or die, how many cases happened where they did? When you see someone's entire collection wiped out, or an entire operation shut down, you start to look at it differently.

You gambled and won. Seems that your two animals are fine. That's great. Many others have gambled and lost and their animals are dead. THIS, the latter, is what I am trying to prevent.

 

[Yvonne G]

In most cases where folks have mixed species successfully it has been done by more experienced keepers, NOT by beginners. It is the beginner tortoise-keeper these do-not-mix posts are directed to. I think an experienced keeper does a great dis-service to the newbie, who are a great big part of this forum, to say I do it so its ok.

 

[Tom]

In most cases where folks have mixed species successfully it has been done by more experienced keepers, NOT by beginners. It is the beginner tortoise-keeper these do-not-mix posts are directed to. I think an experienced keeper does a great dis-service to the newbie, who are a great big part of this forum, to say I do it so its ok.

I agree with this and it's a good point. It made me think of a couple of other points to illustrate.

1. Even for experienced keepers, it's not so simple to as just getting a quick vet check or two and then declaring an animal has a clean bill of health. Many of these diseases are very difficult to diagnose and simply don't show up in some tests. And frankly, there are soooo many potential diseases and parasites, and soooo many possible tests that could be administered it is mind boggling. Add to this the frequency of vet incompetence or vet tech incompetence (not knocking vets or techs, but it DOES happen), simple human error, false negative/positives that regularly occur, etc... and you get back to my original argument that mixing species is a gamble and a risk. A greater risk, of course, than NOT mixing species, regardless of experience or knowledge level.

2. Vet tests are fallible. Many times a disease or parasite just "lays low" in a host, or is held at bay by a healthy animal with a healthy immune system in a stable environment. Add a stressor, like a new tortoise, to the mix and all hell can suddenly break loose in an animal that seemed healthy and was completely asymptomatic prior to the introduction of the new stressor. The new animal doesn't even have to "DO" anything. Just having another unfamiliar tortoise in the territory can be enough in some cases.

Bottom line is still: Mixing species is a risk without benefit, and should be recommended against and discouraged. It is not going to end badly every time, but it is going to end badly SOME of the time. Due to imperfections in veterinary science and human ignorance (Yes ignorance. There is much we do not know about tortoises), there is no way to be certain which outcome a person will end up with regardless of experience or knowledge level.

 

[Cheeky monkey]

i know its bad and frowned on. but every zoo i go to does it.. whats with the mixing?
popcorn park zoo-- leopards and sulcatas
cape may zoo- leopards sulcatas and aldabras!!!
staten island -- leopards with all kinds of african mamals!
bush gardens tampa-- sulcatas aldabras Galapagos! awsome display!
snake animal farm- sulcata leopards.
central park- sulcata leopards
anyone here do it?

I have a really good book, which says NEVER mix tortoise species.

 

[jtrux]

Now you've got me laughing... I can just hear your tone of voice and slight Texas twang as you say this....

LOL

 

[Nay]

In my case in was pure ignorance,I had a nice RF that I purchased at a Reptile show for 75.00. knowing NOTHING!!!(The guy was happy to see it go) Then someone a few years later has to get rid of this Ornate. I thought ,oh well the pool in my living room is pretty big, lets see how they do. I am grateful I ended up with 2 species that are pretty close in their living enviorments. Again this was 15 yrs ago.
Would I do it again?? NO. I feel once you learn, you cannot plead ignorance, and in this day of instant info, you cannot ever plead that case again.
Nay