mixing species?

[Baoh]

I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are and ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.

Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.

---

You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower.

This is a ridiculous argument and not relevant.

---

You broached the matter of unnecessary risk. I met it with a risk I assume you take on with relative frequency. It is relevant to risk. Not risk to tortoises specifically. Risk in general. You are not overly concerned with risk of falling in the shower because you behave in a manner that involves taking precautions to avoid having frequent falls. I am not overly concerned with risk of pathogenic transmission between the species of animals I have in my care because I behave in a manner that involves taking precautions to avoid having pathogens present in the species I keep.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/09/news/la-heb-bathroom-injuries-20110609

Nothing worthy of ridicule involved.

 

[Tom]

The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.

No SH*T sherlock. Who here do you think does not know this?

The point is that many diseases are very difficult to diagnose and are even hard to find in a necropsy, much less in a living animal. Many don't show up, or only show up sporadically or randomly in fecals. Many don't even show up in gastric lavage to the tune of $300 per test.

.... and don't you dare to try to negate these facts by changing the subject and asking me to name all the tortoise diseases to which I am referring to. You know them darn well and you can do the same Google search as I can.

 

[Jacqui]

Peter you made some great points!

For others, please do not insult or call others names.

 

[RedfootsRule]

If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members. Please ?

 

[Baoh]

I never called anyone any name. I stated that his words and behavior made him look like an ***, and they do. There is a difference between "You are and ***.", and "Your bad behavior makes you look like an ***." The latter gives the benefit of the doubt that the person might not actually be an ***.

Peter, I just told you that this is based on a long history. Not the preceding few paragraphs. He and I have been at this for years and he takes every opportunity to try an make me look bad and himself superior. But he's subtle about it. Unfortunately, a lot of his shenanigans, and mine too, have been deleted by the mods over time, so you can't go back and read it.

---

You take an unnecessary risk every time you take a shower. I am assuming you shower.

This is a ridiculous argument and not relevant.

---

I do not recall a time I have promoted it (as being inherently superior) over keeping solitary animals or keeping multiple individuals within a species. I do provide a counter-perspective to dogmatic demonization, however.

I never said you did. I said that your incessant arguing with the people who recommend against mixing species, because they have seen the destruction it can cause, gives the APPEARANCE that you promote it. And there is no "demonization" , dogmatic or otherwise here. Just pointing out the obvious and trying to help other tortoise keepers not make common mistakes.

Who is it you are trying to help here?

---

---

I argue by providing multiple sides to the story you are trying to spin in a unidimensional manner. It does not matter to me if you keep no animals, one animal, multiple animals of one species, or multiple animals of multiple species. However, I do not have to agree with your false belief that mixing species is inherently bad and automatically leads to either immediate or eventual disaster. If a pardalis and a sulcata eat from the same plate and they are both healthy, helminths do not start raining from the sky.

You are of one species and you touch your tortoises which are not of your species. Somehow, some way, the world will keep turning.

---

The transfer of pathogens from one species to another does not necessitate their mixing. A gap in a hygiene protocol can easily do the same. Forgetting to take full steps just once is enough, assuming pathogens are present. If they are not present, ill wishes and irrational fears will not lead to their spontaneous generation. If they are present, they are also harmful to same-species contact, but if they are present in neither species in a mixed-species setup, that matter becomes immaterial.

No SH*T sherlock. Who here do you think does not know this?

The point is that many diseases are very difficult to diagnose and are even hard to find in a necropsy, much less in a living animal. Many don't show up, or only show up sporadically or randomly in fecals. Many don't even show up in gastric lavage to the tune of $300 per test.

.... and don't you dare to try to negate these facts by changing the subject and asking me to name all the tortoise diseases to which I am referring to. You know them darn well and you can do the same Google search as I can.

There you go again with your name-calling.

That same logic should prevent you from ever introducing any individual from one species to another member of its same species.

 

[Tom]

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.

So if I come out to Missouri, put your back to a tree, place an apple on your head and back up 300 yards, and shoot the apple off of your head, that will be okay, since I'm not TECHNICALLY shooting at you, right? Technicalities matter, but giving good advice to people who ask for it matters too.

I'll repeat it again. If someone chooses to not mix species based on my, or anyone else's, advice, what bad thing is going to happen? NOTHING. If someone decides to throw their New Petco Russian in with their redfoot, because YOU have led them to believe the risk is minimal, and that silly Tom worries too much, what MIGHT happen? One or both animals might die.

Again BAOH, WHAT is the point of your arguing? Who are you trying to help?

 

[Jacqui]

If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members.

I can't close the thread, as it's not a thread you started. Some great points have been made amid the arguments. As it is a debate thread, going into this more argumentative behavior is allowed. Mods are deleting things violating the rules. If it does continue or gets too out of hand, further action will be taken. This thread is currently on shakey ground and being watched. Please guys, watch yourself. Perhaps take a break and cool off?

 

[RedfootsRule]

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.

So if I come out to Missouri, put your back to a tree, place an apple on your head and back up 300 yards, and shoot the apple off of your head, that will be okay, since I'm not TECHNICALLY shooting at you, right? Technicalities matter, but giving good advice to people who ask for it matters too.

I'll repeat it again. If someone chooses to not mix species based on my, or anyone else's, advice, what bad thing is going to happen? NOTHING. If someone decides to throw their New Petco Russian in with their redfoot, because YOU have led them to believe the risk is minimal, and that silly Tom worries too much, what MIGHT happen? One or both animals might die.

Again BAOH, WHAT is the point of your arguing? Who are you trying to help?

This is still the debate thread right? It's not the "only helping thread". No one has been led to believe the risk is minimal; that is in nobodies post. It is a debate, and a point was stated that it can be done. The risks were mentioned. You don't worry to much. We should all know darn well to worry about it. But it can be done, whether its dangerous or not.

I think everyone here is making themselves look stupid through this continuous argument....

Jacqui, does that mean if I open a thread and ask for a mod to close it, they will? I've always wondered that. Great points have been made here, I just hate seeing people pointlessly argue and embarrass themselves .

 

[Baoh]

Being technically correct is the best kind of correct to be and is relevant even if it is inconvenient for you and whatever dichotomous religion (old vs. new, bone dry vs. jungle-like closed chamber, always mix all species vs. never mix any species, and so on) you are attempting to forge.

So if I come out to Missouri, put your back to a tree, place an apple on your head and back up 300 yards, and shoot the apple off of your head, that will be okay, since I'm not TECHNICALLY shooting at you, right? Technicalities matter, but giving good advice to people who ask for it matters too.

I'll repeat it again. If someone chooses to not mix species based on my, or anyone else's, advice, what bad thing is going to happen? NOTHING. If someone decides to throw their New Petco Russian in with their redfoot, because YOU have led them to believe the risk is minimal, and that silly Tom worries too much, what MIGHT happen? One or both animals might die.

Again BAOH, WHAT is the point of your arguing? Who are you trying to help?

Please avoid implying a threat. Besides, I do not think you so technically competent as to be a decent enough shot to minimize my risk, William Tell.

Parasites can be transmitted and animals can fight if they follow your advice. Not "NOTHING".

I have never told anyone it is a good idea to toss in a new Petco Russian with their redfoot, however, so if someone took that away from what I have typed, they might have literacy issues in dire need of immediate address.

I am presenting another perspective to the topic to help people be more fully informed.

---

If I ask really nicely, can a moderator either close this thread or delete all of the unnecessarily argumentative posts? (Including mine). I think we all know that, while some good points have been made, this is an inappropriate personal argument which does not belong on this forum, nor is it beneficial to any members.

I can't close the thread, as it's not a thread you started. Some great points have been made amid the arguments. As it is a debate thread, going into this more argumentative behavior is allowed. Mods are deleting things violating the rules. If it does continue or gets too out of hand, further action will be taken. This thread is currently on shakey ground and being watched. Please guys, watch yourself. Perhaps take a break and cool off?

Jacqui, I will continue to call no derogatory names and make no threats, implied or explicit.

 

[Tom]

However, I do not have to agree with your false belief that mixing species is inherently bad and automatically leads to either immediate or eventual disaster. If a pardalis and a sulcata eat from the same plate and they are both healthy, helminths do not start raining from the sky.

You are of one species and you touch your tortoises which are not of your species. Somehow, some way, the world will keep turning.

There you go again with your name-calling.

That same logic should prevent you from ever introducing any individual from one species to another member of its same species.

I have no false belief about mixing species. It IS generally a bad idea for the reasons previously listed, and I have NEVER asserted in any way that it automatically leads to disaster, only that it often does. Because you have not seen it yet does not mean it does not exist. I and many other experienced keepers HAVE seen it. Every time? No. Sometimes? Yes. And the risk is less for animals of the same species from the same general areas of the world since they are better adapted to dealing with pathogens from the area where they come from. You know this. Why bring it up?

And there YOU go with YOUR insults. Crazy Tom thinks that parasites will fall from the sky if two tortoises eat from the same plate.

... and using common vernacular in emphasizing a point is NOT name calling, as much as you would like it to be. I don't really think your name is Sherlock and was not calling you that.

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Please avoid implying a threat. Besides, I do not think you so technically competent as to be a decent enough shot to minimize my risk, William Tell.

I have never told anyone it is a good idea to toss in a new Petco Russian with their redfoot, however, so if someone took that away from what I have typed, they might have literacy issues in dire need of immediate address.

I am presenting another perspective to the topic to help people be more fully informed. I

No threat here, implied or otherwise. Simply making a point about technicalities. And you'd be wrong about my technical competence. You don't know me, but here is another example of your incorrect assumptions.

No you have not directly told anyone to put their Petco Russian with their redfoot, but I know you are smart enough to be able to tell that some people will take it that way and not even know about all the precautions you profess to take.

It is pointless for you to "present another perspective...". I have never said that mixing species is an automatic death sentence, just as you have never said its automatically fine to mix species.

How many times are we going to do this?

I'm offering good advice to people who have asked for it. You are offering no advice to people, only trying to make others look as if they don't know what they are talking about, when they clearly do, in some ill-conceived effort to discredit them. I'm the only one who takes the time to publicly argue with you about this, but others agree with me and you know it.

 

[Jacqui]

Let's get back on topic, which is mixing species.

 

[Yvonne G]

A note of explanation:

Any post that isn't on topic from this point on will be sent to the "to be deleted" file.

 

[argus333]

what gets me and i saw it 1st hand was people may own a sulcata and see him with aldabras and think, hey i have a huge pen for old sulcata why not get a aldabra also... not really a good idea. but some are better caretakers the others, as with some zoos. the diplay at bush gardens is sick and u can fully pet the tortoises!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Not mixing species is not dogma, it is wise practice based on a very cogent scientific principle, the "precautionary principle". This simple states don't act on knowledge you don't have. Knowledge can be gained through controlled experiments, and very good observation such that you can predict outcomes with statistical accuracy.

The progression of awareness of zoonotic disease is more often than not based on people dying from some mystery disease. Someone does some research, and they sort it out. Then new better ways are used to continue working with the animals so people don't get sick.

That is not dogma, that is rational behavior.

It is absolutely necessary to introduce males and females of the same species for reproduction in most all chelonians (some debate could be had over past uses of semen collection and artificial insemination, but that's "off topic"). So that is a well reasoned cause to have turtles/tortoises together, at least as long as one does not injure the other. Many species reproductive socialization in the wild as well as in captivity is high risk, for the individuals.

The matter of using feces from one animal to promote a wellness in another is a rational use barring siblings etc, are not available. It's a low sought out resolution, but if that's what you got, it is a best resolution.

Even if someone were to say, "my vet checked out m tortoise and it has a clean bill of health" it should not be mixed because . . .

1) Not all know disease processes are apparent even after multiple screenings.
2) Not all diseases are even known, the literature on new diseases found in chelonians is immense (there is a way to look at search effort and findings, then describe that trend, and from that offer a statistically well honed argument for how any more diseases are 'out there' but not yet discovered, but again that is "off topic" and I know that it works, I just don't know how to work it myself)

Disease is only one concern that is a subset of the entire debate on mixing species, and that in itself is a strong non-dogmatic, rational point of view. If you seek to breed, then mix individuals, if you are seeking hybrids then mix species.

If you want a pet, that once established is well cared for, then keep it as an individual.

What zoos do is depict the wilds of the world, so you can have a 'safari' in your city for many other parts of the world. Critically managed species are not mixed, and even pairings are deeply and well considered events.

And again, that person who kicked this can . . .

What are you hoping to gain, what is your payoff, what is better for you or the turtle by mixing species?

What is your goal or sought end result?

If you have no further comment about why you want to mix species, well then , they will delete any further thing I write. . .

Will

 

[RedfootsRule]

I do very much agree with you Will, on all counts. It is a precautionary principle that should be exercised in all situations. It is true to say that it IS possible I suppose, but it is a possibility that should probably not be pursued.
And it is an interesting point you bring up, and very true when you think of it, that not all diseases (not even close) are known. A tortoise that is mixed with another species could drop dead one day from an unknown disease and we wouldn't be able to figure out the culprit.

What is your position on mixing species with overlapping ranges, like yellow foots and red foots? They are two different species, but they are closely related, and it seems they would meet each other in the wild. I guess its another argument to be had about the occurrence of hybridization, I'm just curious if there could be any possible contaminates between the two species.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I would guess no unique diseases between the two species, where they are sympatric. But even then that is not a dead stop result.

Snapping turtles have an STD that is unique to them, I understand, so even though they may swim with many other species, unless they "do it" with the other species that disease will not jump species.

Captive hybrids can be interesting, wild ones do occur, captive not my interest, wild very very interesting.

Will

I do very much agree with you Will, on all counts. It is a precautionary principle that should be exercised in all situations. It is true to say that it IS possible I suppose, but it is a possibility that should probably not be pursued.
And it is an interesting point you bring up, and very true when you think of it, that not all diseases (not even close) are known. A tortoise that is mixed with another species could drop dead one day from an unknown disease and we wouldn't be able to figure out the culprit.

What is your position on mixing species with overlapping ranges, like yellow foots and red foots? They are two different species, but they are closely related, and it seems they would meet each other in the wild. I guess its another argument to be had about the occurrence of hybridization, I'm just curious if there could be any possible contaminates between the two species.

 

[RedfootsRule]

The snapping turtle comment led me to think, we do this all the time with turtles. I suppose the possible contaminates are different, being that so many species live so closely in the wild? I keep cooters, sliders, snappers all together and have never had any issues. I know many, many keepers that mix turtle species...Just interesting, the difference.

 

[Tortoise]

I personally would not do it.
I think all of my pancake problems were probably due to the babies being thrown in with a totally different tortoise breed from the beginning.

I know someone who does keep Hermanns and Greek (ibera) together with no problems however.

I have both types of red foot and don't consider them different in terms of mixing species.

I also believe that the person commenting on using feces from another species is correct-it can save lives but the tortoise the sample is being used from needs to be screened very carefully to prevent transmission of other parasites.The only time I think this would be done is when you only have different species samples to choose from and it is preferable to use the same species if possible.
It can cure sterile gut syndrome.

In other species of mammal as in the alpaca, we can also transfer stomach contents to restore gut flora.

Generally speaking though, I think species mixing in tortoises is very risky.

(I have a plated lizard and beardie that came together and are thriving together too)I was willing to split them up but felt there was no need having studied their behavour carefully and supervised their feeding habits.

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redfootsrule
I know of lots of people too mixing turtles quite happily-not sure why the aquatic turtles are so different?

 

[argus333]

what about the new sulcata/ leopard mix?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I too wondered why it seems common for different species of aquatic turtles to be mixed without hesitation.

I started a thread about that once in the water turtle section but i don't think anyone understood what i was asking and i don't remember a clear answer.

I guess i would like to know, from those opposed to mixing tort species together, are you also against mixing different aquatic turtle species?