Mushy egg or something else

[Keil Gries]

I have a leopard tortoise that just started laying a similar type of very goopy underdeveloped egg as you describe. She has been passing them when I bathe her. There have been 3 so far, and it has been making me extremely nervous as it was hard to find information about, and it seemed so strange. After looking for a couple weeks I finally just found this post. I will try to up the calcium intake although I normally powder her grass with it when I feed her and also provide cactus pads.

 

[wellington]

I have a leopard tortoise that just started laying a similar type of very goopy underdeveloped egg as you describe. She has been passing them when I bathe her. There have been 3 so far, and it has been making me extremely nervous as it was hard to find information about, and it seemed so strange. After looking for a couple weeks I finally just found this post. I will try to up the calcium intake although I normally powder her grass with it when I feed her and also provide cactus pads.

That is a urate not anything to do with eggs. Leopards seldom pass noticable urates. I have never seen my leopards pass them.
What are you feeding?
Temps?, basking? All over? Night?
Humidity?
Age and size of her?
Size of enclosure?
Type of lighting and heat?

 

[Yvonne G]

My leopards never passed urates either. This makes me wonder about your tortoise's water intake.

 

[Keil Gries]

That is a urate not anything to do with eggs. Leopards seldom pass noticable urates. I have never seen my leopards pass them.
What are you feeding?
Temps?, basking? All over? Night?
Humidity?
Age and size of her?
Size of enclosure?
Type of lighting and heat?

Hmmm, I've never seen her pass urates like that before and she hasn't laid eggs this season. She laid 9 last year. In person it doesn't look like urates. It would relieve me if you were right, but my brother has a Sulcata that passes urates and they look nothing like this. I have another video where I pulled one out of the water and you can see its shape and consistency, but I'll have to figure out how to upload it.

Her shell is 14.5 inches long and 9.5 wide.

As far as her age I basically don't know for certain. We got her from a situation where her previous keeper could no longer care for her along with another small male leopard they had. I was told her hatch date was October 31st, 2017 and that they were from Kamp Kenan (I messaged Kenan with pictures and he denied this, but would not elaborate). I got her from them in 2020, which would have made her about 3 at the time according to what they said, however she was already a good size and seeing pictures of other leopards online of similar to her size all being 10+ years old I wasn't sure what to make of it, especially since the random Kamp Kenan origin story they offered turned out to be most likely false. Well to my huge surprise she laid eggs last season, which I was not exactly ready for since I assumed she was 5 years old based off their info and not having owned a leopard previously. I now believe she is much older than that.

She gets fed grass, Mazuri, Opuntia cactus pads, rotating produce like escarole, endive, collard greens, bok choy, etc. Mulberry leaves, hibiscus flowers, pumpkin when in season.

When it's warm she has the entire yard to roam and graze, but for winter she's inside in a 4 x 6 pen, although we have another larger one that's closer to 5 x 9 that she had been in before we had to put the Sulcata in there.

Max basking temp under the light after laying out a bit is around 101. Ambient temperature varies depending on which side of the enclosure, but there are heat pads with a probe that keeps it at least 83, but with the lights there is a gradient. She has a separate 3 foot UVB bulb, and her basking light provides UV. Humidity at around or above 80% and we have a misting system to keep moisture. Heat pad and probe stays on at night and she sleeps under it, she's always warm, around 83ish at night but it can vary slightly depending on where she sleeps.

 

[Keil Gries]

My leopards never passed urates either. This makes me wonder about your tortoise's water intake.

Up until about a month ago, she had a massive cement mixing tub with water that she would soak in daily and drink from. She has always visibly drank a lot. I watch her put her mouth down and suck up water all the time, since the enclosure situation has moved around for winter, she has been getting regular baths and again I watch her drink whenever I put her in the water, plus she gets metabolic moisture from produce/grass which I also usually spray with water

 

[wellington]

Up until about a month ago, she had a massive cement mixing tub with water that she would soak in daily and drink from. She has always visibly drank a lot. I watch her put her mouth down and suck up water all the time, since the enclosure situation has moved around for winter, she has been getting regular baths and again I watch her drink whenever I put her in the water, plus she gets metabolic moisture from produce/grass which I also usually spray with water

Does she have a clay saucer water dish big enough for her to get into and available 24/7? If not she does need it. Water should be available 24/7.

 

[wellington]

Up until about a month ago, she had a massive cement mixing tub with water that she would soak in daily and drink from. She has always visibly drank a lot. I watch her put her mouth down and suck up water all the time, since the enclosure situation has moved around for winter, she has been getting regular baths and again I watch her drink whenever I put her in the water, plus she gets metabolic moisture from produce/grass which I also usually spray with water

I do only have the picture to go by. It doesn't seem to be any sort of egg. I of course could be wrong. However, if she is not getting water daily to drink and she does drink a noticeable amount when you soak her, she may be dehydrated all the time in-between.

 

[Yvonne G]

The stuff in your picture doesn't look like an egg to me.

@Markw84 ??

 

[Keil Gries]

Does she have a clay saucer water dish big enough for her to get into and available 24/7? If not she does need it. Water should be available 24/7.

Yeah, you can see in the second picture above, she has always had a massive saucer that she would soak in and a cement mixing tub after that, only just recently did we have to remove the water feature, and were replacing with bathing, but I will immediately figure a solution and replace the cement mixing tub.

 

[Keil Gries]

I do only have the picture to go by. It doesn't seem to be any sort of egg. I of course could be wrong. However, if she is not getting water daily to drink and she does drink a noticeable amount when you soak her, she may be dehydrated all the time in-between.

I will make sure she has tons of water, it's just strange because for all these years straight she has had 24/7 access to water to drink/soak in and it was still virtually an every day thing that she would wake up, soak, and drink where I could see her neck sucking up and swallowing the water, she always looked great and never seemed dehydrated, I thought it was a good thing she was going after the water, but idk, I'll keep an eye out are there specific signs to look for with dehydration??

My brother has a video on his phone of handling one of the urate/egg mystery blobs and you can better see the thickness and shape of it, not sure if it will help or not but I'll get it from him when he gets home.

 

[wellington]

Yeah, you can see in the second picture above, she has always had a massive saucer that she would soak in and a cement mixing tub after that, only just recently did we have to remove the water feature, and were replacing with bathing, but I will immediately figure a solution and replace the cement mixing tub.

Yes, please put it back in. They need water available always.

 

[wellington]

I will make sure she has tons of water, it's just strange because for all these years straight she has had 24/7 access to water to drink/soak in and it was still virtually an every day thing that she would wake up, soak, and drink where I could see her neck sucking up and swallowing the water, she always looked great and never seemed dehydrated, I thought it was a good thing she was going after the water, but idk, I'll keep an eye out are there specific signs to look for with dehydration??

My brother has a video on his phone of handling one of the urate/egg mystery blobs and you can better see the thickness and shape of it, not sure if it will help or not but I'll get it from him when he gets home.

Doesn't sound like here that she would be dehydrated then.
The video might help.
It's strange cuz it doesn't appear eggy but leopards usually don't pass urates. Hmmm. Maybe the member Yvonne alerted can shed some light.
Btw, I think videos have to be posted on YouTube first then shared here.

 

[Keil Gries]

Yes, please put it back in. They need water available always.

Will do. Does anyone have an opinion on the age? As I said this is my first leopard so I have no firsthand experience to reference as far as growth, she seems pretty large to me for the age they gave me, but I also don't know what her genetic origin is as far as the locality or whether she has giant pardalis pardalis. She also still seems to be growing pretty rapidly, so I don't think she's anywhere near done whatever the age is

 

[Keil Gries]

Here's a video clip of the last one she passed after taking it out of the water..

@Yvonne G
@wellington

 

[wellington]

That looks less like urates to me than the pic. It could possibly be a shell less egg.
@Tom any idea?

 

[wellington]

I would say she could easily be around 8-12 years. However, if she was kept in a pair situation, that could have affected her growth. Comparing her to the females I used to have, that would be my guess.
She's beautiful.

 

[Tom]

I have a leopard tortoise that just started laying a similar type of very goopy underdeveloped egg as you describe. She has been passing them when I bathe her. There have been 3 so far, and it has been making me extremely nervous as it was hard to find information about, and it seemed so strange. After looking for a couple weeks I finally just found this post. I will try to up the calcium intake although I normally powder her grass with it when I feed her and also provide cactus pads.

Urates come in all states of liquidity from almost milk like right up to solid stones in extreme cases. What you have there is urates produced by a well hydrated tortoise.

Urates are a result of protein digestion. Mazuri, some weeds with higher protein content, and any legumes can cause the formation of urates. In a properly hydrated tortoise, like yours, they just pass through in some degree of a semi-liquid state. In a dehydrated tortoise they can be chalky or gritty. In the case of a tortoise that is fed too much protein, or not keep hydrated enough, or confined to small quarters because of weather or climate, the urates can collect, dehydrate further and form large stones. This is potentially deadly. Proper diet, hydration, and an abundance of locomotion will prevent these urate stones.

Another clue: Sometimes first time moms will drop shell less eggs, slugs with soft leathery shells, or various types of duds on the surface or in a soak tub when they are first gearing up for a life of egg laying. I call this "priming the pump". I've have never seen this happen with a tortoise that has previously laid normal eggs, and that is another reason why I think your are holding urates in your picture.

In your climate, she should be outside most of every year. "Inside for winter" is a mistake. You need a heated night box that can be securely closed up and this tortoise should be out walking around most of winter. You can keep her locked in during those occasional winter cold spells, and certainly lock her in every night all year long to protect her from cold, pests and predators, but that exercise is necessary to prevent urate formation like this. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

It was 28F here last night. All my boxes stayed plenty warm. These should work beautifully in your climate too.

 

[Keil Gries]

Urates come in all states of liquidity from almost milk like right up to solid stones in extreme cases. What you have there is urates produced by a well hydrated tortoise.

Urates are a result of protein digestion. Mazuri, some weeds with higher protein content, and any legumes can cause the formation of urates. In a properly hydrated tortoise, like yours, they just pass through in some degree of a semi-liquid state. In a dehydrated tortoise they can be chalky or gritty. In the case of a tortoise that is fed too much protein, or not keep hydrated enough, or confined to small quarters because of weather or climate, the urates can collect, dehydrate further and form large stones. This is potentially deadly. Proper diet, hydration, and an abundance of locomotion will prevent these urate stones.

Another clue: Sometimes first time moms will drop shell less eggs, slugs with soft leathery shells, or various types of duds on the surface or in a soak tub when they are first gearing up for a life of egg laying. I call this "priming the pump". I've have never seen this happen with a tortoise that has previously laid normal eggs, and that is another reason why I think your are holding urates in your picture.

In your climate, she should be outside most of every year. "Inside for winter" is a mistake. You need a heated night box that can be securely closed up and this tortoise should be out walking around most of winter. You can keep her locked in during those occasional winter cold spells, and certainly lock her in every night all year long to protect her from cold, pests and predators, but that exercise is necessary to prevent urate formation like this. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

It was 28F here last night. All my boxes stayed plenty warm. These should work beautifully in your climate too.

A detail I should have given, I am in New York right now on Long Island so they must be kept indoors because it is prohibitively cold outside. I had to come to NY for an extended stay a little over a year ago and had no choice but to take her with me. We will be returning to Orlando in the coming months, and I will attempt to move her outside and take your hide box suggestions for when I return. Although I had previously kept her in a large indoor enclosure even in Florida mostly, since my property is just a matter of feet from a large forest with many predators, hawks, vultures, owls, bears, bobcats, racoons, you name it; it will take some serious predator-proofing for me to be comfortable having her outside all the time.

The eggs she laid last year were infertile and two of them were extremely hard and crystalline in appearance. I have heard of new mothers laying "slugs" or dud eggs their first time around so I too thought it was strange that they would be mushy like this after producing solid eggs, albeit some strange, last season.

All that being said, is this something that I should be concerned about for her health? Do you think I should take her to a vet and get her x-rayed? Since she laid many solid eggs last season and none this year, my neuroticism has be obsessing that she may be eggbound, but I don't know how normal it is for them to skip a year and not lay. Do they reabsorb eggs like some monitors can?

Thank you Tom, Yvonne, Wellington, along with everyone else for the replies. I've lurked here for a few years to get information and have often read and taken advice from all your posts to others, so it's nice to finally chat a bit.

 

[Keil Gries]

I would say she could easily be around 8-12 years. However, if she was kept in a pair situation, that could have affected her growth. Comparing her to the females I used to have, that would be my guess.
She's beautiful.

Out of curiosity, in what way would keeping them in a paired situation affect growth? To my knowledge my big female was kept for a time with her younger brother who was much smaller (they told us they had been "medically sexed" and the little one was also a female, but he showed us a couple years ago that he is definitely not a female, lol). Is there any possibility that the hatch date could be correct and she could really be a giant 6 year tortoise? Or is 5 years old way too young to have laid a first clutch? Thanks for the compliment on her appearance, and for all the help. She's my pride and joy and I do what I can to try and pamper her.

I'm attaching a picture of her from the day we got them in 2020 and you can see her little brother for size comparison who they said hatched in 2019 (4 years later and the smaller one, although male, has still not attained the size or girth that the larger one already had when we got her, despite her allegedly being 3 years old in this picture).

Sorry for so many questions, I've just not been able to pick the brains of such experienced keepers before and I have way more questions regarding her origins than answers. Just trying to get as much information as I can so that I can provide the best care possible. Thank you again.

EDIT: P.S. @Tom love the Judas Priest album cover avatar, they were my first concert back in 2004. Cheers!

 

[wellington]

When in pairs, it can affect them in a lot of ways because of the constant stress they live under. Tortoises are solidary animals. They do not live together in the wild. They meet up, breed or fight and move on. One always gets bullied by the other. The bully will follow, lay on food not letting the other get to it. The bully will block the hide or block the basking area, block the water, etc
When it's a single male female situation, the male will constantly try to breed the single female, stressing her even more. The one being bullied can stop eating, stop roaming, stop drinking, will do nothing but try to hide away. Not all bullying signs are obvious either. The stress alone can make them sick or worse.
Now put all this in our small enclosures, small compared to the wild, and the one being bullied can't get away.
Yes, this can affect their growth.
If you know the hatch date, or year, then that's what you should go by. Tortoises grow at different rates. She may have been the bully and got the best food, basking area, etc. The size of her in the pic, she should not have been housed with the other one. Not only because they shouldn't be housed in pairs, but the size difference too.
Tortoises also do everything slow. They may seem fine being together, but if you know the signs, they are not fine. Eventually you will start seeing health problems in one or both.
Being medically sexed is expensive. Not likely they had it done. Usually only those with very expensive species and big time breeders will do that. Obviously if the one they thought was female turned out to be a male, they weren't surgically sexed. Most likely temp hatched to be a certain sex. Higher temps during incubation produces more females, the lower temp more males, but it's not 100%.