my red foot is pyramiding

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aidanhd500

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i am keeping him on dry substrate i am changing this at the end of the month when i am cleaning it. i have a reptisun uvb light and a infared heat light aswell as a heat emitter. he has so far ate part of a tomatoe and some lettuce. he did not make an effort to eat apples but i will try to re introduce them. i was wondering what to feed him for D3 and calcium so if you could let me know it would be great. its at around 81 farenheit in there right now and humidity is at 60 percent. i have been getting him wet and he has been drinking too. he walks in his dish and drinks and then just goes back to hiding. i havnt seen him for more than 10 minutes at a time unless he is eating. i am going to change the substrate to something more ubsorbent like forest most or something along those lines, ill post the pictures right bellow in the next post... its plenty big enough he just doesnt walk around in it
 

Madkins007

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Hi, again!

If you go to the Tortoise Library link, you'll find a Red-foot diet page that may help you select good foods. The foods are broken into groups- the 'Great' foods are high in calcium.

There are not a lot of foods that have a lot of vitamin D3 that tortoises like (organ meat, oily fish, eggs, etc.), but the best sources are unfiltered sun or a good UVB bulb. The Reptisun is OK, but there is some evidence that it is not quite enough- a UVB 'mercury vapor bulb' like these- http://www.bigappleherp.com/Sun-Force-Mercury-Vapor-Bulbs (I am not pushing any brand, just using this as an example).

Fresh mushrooms, however, have plenty of D2, which may also be helpful, although is not as good as D3 overall.

There is an article in this forum's Articles section (and in the Library) on shell problems that discusses how to deal with mild Metabolic Bone Disease that might help as well.

81F is a bit cool for an overall temp, especially if it is moist and humid in there. You may want to reposition a bulb or two to get closer to 85F.

I hope this helps a little!
 

Balboa

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Thanks Aidan!
As to be expected Mark gave you some good advice, his site is a very good one to get some good info and ideas, spend some time there.

As I recall, other canadians have had trouble finding many of the high calcium greens most suggest. In stateside supermarkets we have "spring mix" or "santa barbara mix" in the grocery stores, in plastic bags. These are a handy place to start, as they usually include some of the better green choices. Normally, we want dark leafy greens to be the major part of the diet, stuff like endive, escarole, chicory, turnip greens, collards, kale, and two weeds that you may have in your backyard, plantain and dandelion. You just need to be real careful about backyard weeds, and I mean REAL CAREFUL. You need to know for sure that you've correctly identified them, as some plants can be harmful, and you need to make sure that no chemicals have been used in the yard. If you aren't sure, don't use them. The idea is to give your tort as much variety as you can without risk. Basically, a nice flavorful salad with some mushrooms on top like Mark suggested, is the ideal tort food.

I don't feed a lot of fruit. Some folks add just a little fruit everyday, I prefer to add a decent portion of fruit every 3rd day. Mark doesn't have this trouble, but I know mine will pick out the fruit and eat it first ignoring the rest, so by only doing it every 3 days I make sure the ratio is better.

Many people also leave a cuttlebone in the enclosure (like you get for a parakeet) as this allows the Tort to get a calcium boost whenever they want, and it helps keep their beaks in good shape. A lot of the calcium from a cuttlebone winds up passing through, but I'm sure they get some nutritional benefit.

Pictures of the enclosure may help. 60% humidity is pretty low, really we want over 80. Most of us have found that we need to cover most of the enclosure to get humidity high enough. Not knowing what exactly you have makes it tricky to suggest anything. If you have a screen top, you can lay a wet towel over the screen. This largely traps the air, but allows for some exchange of air, your tort needs some airflow to stay healthy. We don't really want it dripping wet in there either, I've found misting alone won't get it in my house, too dry, without totally soaking everything, which is not good either. There are ways to set up a humidifier that may help if needed.

you'll want to make sure the uv lamp and basking lamp both sit next to each other at an end. The idea is to have the enclosure hot (90 fahrenheit) on one side cooler on the other (83-85). I like to keep a thermometer at each end to watch it.

I should also say, if he's leaving his hide on his own every once in a while, that's fine, that's a good sign. It can take them a while to feel good enough with their health and new home to be very active. If you give him everything he needs to be healthy and some time to settle in, he'll turnaround over time and be your best friend for life.
 

aidanhd500

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you guys have been so helpful. i need to re-format the picture because it wont let me upload it but il try changing it right now. he has been eating better and his eyes are no longer watering :)
 

aidanhd500

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im gonna change my substrate at christmas what kind should i get?
 

Ruby's Mom

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Seiryu said:
I don't have much to add. But does anyone else see in the last 3 pics his shell is actually dipping in (Like MBD already?)

The 2nd pic between the 2nd and 3rd middle scute (from the head). It looks like they are dipping in to me.

I have just joined this forum within the last 24 hours and in Aiden's defense, these are Peanutbutter's tortoises, not Aiden's.

I have recently adopted my first redfoot "Ruby" after working with Sulcatas where I work (I know, comparing apples to oranges...) but my Ruby greatly resembles Kiwi as far as the shell is concerned in the first picture. I was actually in shock when I saw her. (Ruby that is) and to adopt her for $27.50 instead of a regular purchase price of $109 I was not about to let her suffer any more malnutrition.

I am amazed that Ruby does not seem to have the same appetite as the Sulcatas. She takes a couple bites and then wanders off. She had been fed dry pellets, some lettuces and broccoli and I'm told every two weeks a pinkie mouse.

The food mixture I have given so far is a few cubes of Nature Zone tortoise diet, 1/8 tsp tetra Reptomin fruit gel (don't know why it's called gel), finely chopped melon (water, canteloup, honey dew,) a grape, strawberry, kiwi, pineapple, shredded carrots, broccoli, cabbage, romaine lettuce, and a few zoo-med canned small meal worms. the entire amount is barely 1/4 of a cup and I sprinkle calcium/d-3 suppliment and I also have something called Tortoise veggie plus by Reptile life that is a powder that can be sprinkled over the food as well. She also has a cuttle bone to chew on. Oh, She hates getting her face dirty. I've only had her a few days and that tiny amount of food usually goes to waste (actually I just put it in one of my bird cages and the cockatiels or conures get an extra meal.)
 

jackrat

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aidanhd500 said:
im gonna change my substrate at christmas what kind should i get?
I have always had good results with cypress mulch.It soaks up water like a sponge,but the top layer dries relatively fast. This helps to keep humidity up without risking shell rot from staying on a wet substrate constantly.In the hides,I use long fibered sphagnum moss,which I dampen whenever I wet the substrate(about every 2 or 3 days).I keep the ambiant humidity up with vaporizers running 24-7.The whole room is like an 86 degree jungle,which is a redfoot's preferred habitat.For some really nice pictures of redfoot vivariums,go to some of terryo's posts.She has some truly world class habitats that are a pleasure to look upon.My setup is in a whole room,and more utilitarian.
 

Ruby's Mom

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aidanhd500 said:
im gonna change my substrate at christmas what kind should i get?

Cypress bedding is recommended. Redfoots also love to play in mud at times. Look into reptile misting units also. they are small and aid in keeping moisture levels at the required level. I have them where I work, but I was thinking of rigging my nebulizer up since I got it for a cat that hated it in the first place. (Yes I work at a pet store. but I adopted Ruby from Petco. My store is privately owned and I only go to Petco to be nosy and to get stuff for my own use that I can't get through my own suppliers)
 

Yvonne G

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Ruby said:
I have just joined this forum within the last 24 hours and in Aiden's defense, these are Peanutbutter's tortoises, not Aiden's.

THANK YOU!!! I kept going back to Aiden's first post and couldn't find his pictures! Thought there for a minute I was going loopy!!
 

Balboa

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Ruby said:
Seiryu said:
I don't have much to add. But does anyone else see in the last 3 pics his shell is actually dipping in (Like MBD already?)

The 2nd pic between the 2nd and 3rd middle scute (from the head). It looks like they are dipping in to me.

I have just joined this forum within the last 24 hours and in Aiden's defense, these are Peanutbutter's tortoises, not Aiden's.

I have recently adopted my first redfoot "Ruby" after working with Sulcatas where I work (I know, comparing apples to oranges...) but my Ruby greatly resembles Kiwi as far as the shell is concerned in the first picture. I was actually in shock when I saw her. (Ruby that is) and to adopt her for $27.50 instead of a regular purchase price of $109 I was not about to let her suffer any more malnutrition.

I am amazed that Ruby does not seem to have the same appetite as the Sulcatas. She takes a couple bites and then wanders off. She had been fed dry pellets, some lettuces and broccoli and I'm told every two weeks a pinkie mouse.

The food mixture I have given so far is a few cubes of Nature Zone tortoise diet, 1/8 tsp tetra Reptomin fruit gel (don't know why it's called gel), finely chopped melon (water, canteloup, honey dew,) a grape, strawberry, kiwi, pineapple, shredded carrots, broccoli, cabbage, romaine lettuce, and a few zoo-med canned small meal worms. the entire amount is barely 1/4 of a cup and I sprinkle calcium/d-3 suppliment and I also have something called Tortoise veggie plus by Reptile life that is a powder that can be sprinkled over the food as well. She also has a cuttle bone to chew on. Oh, She hates getting her face dirty. I've only had her a few days and that tiny amount of food usually goes to waste (actually I just put it in one of my bird cages and the cockatiels or conures get an extra meal.)

Sorry about the confusion, but you are incorrect Ruby's Mom, Seiryu was in fact talking about Aidan's Tortoise and NOT Peanutbutters'. The problem is Aidan's pictures have for some reason dissapeared.

Mods, what could make those pics vanish?

Peanut's tortoise merely has mild pyramiding, which is hopefully all yours has, and unlikely to have anything to do with incorrect diet, but incorrect environment for too long at a young age.

In Aidan's, now missing, pictures there appeared to be a dip in the Carapace which is indicative of poor diet and thus MBD.

The foods you listed are fine on occasion, and/or just to get a tortoise eating that is showing little/no appetite, but I just want to make sure that is your intention, and not an example of a proper diet. As a long time keeper of sulcata I expect you are aware of that.



And oh yah, Aidan, glad things are going better!

hopefully you can find cypress mulch, as that is the best choice. If not that 2nd best is anything made from Douglas Fir, which includes Orchid Bark (its not actually made from orchids, but for orchids). If available from the hardware store bags of either pure Cypress or Douglas Fir would be your most cost effective. (unfortunately for me, neither are available "pure" in my local hardware stores). If all else fails local pet shops may have Zoo-Med's Forest Floor or Repti-Bark. Forest Floor is made from Cypress, and Repti-Bark is Douglas Fir. They're just rather spendy compared to the hardware store. (Many folks hate repti-bark, as it stains, but it really is the same thing as orchid bark, which they usually suggest. No idea why one stains more than the other, possibly in the preparation.).
 

Yvonne G

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Balboa said:
Sorry about the confusion, but you are incorrect Ruby's Mom, Seiryu was in fact talking about Aidan's Tortoise and NOT Peanutbutters'. The problem is Aidan's pictures have for some reason dissapeared.

Mods, what could make those pics vanish?

I never saw the original pictures, so I don't know if they were put up using an outside program like Photobucket or tinypic, or if they were put up using the forum's picture attachment. If you attach pictures using the
 

Balboa

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That's the thing, I'm fairly certain they were on the Forum's picture attachment. There is still a little code there

View attachment 6564

That doesn't seem to be working, but I know I remember there being 3 "clicky" pics, and now all gone, like its been edited out.
 
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PeanutbuttER

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His pictures were there. I remember seeing them.

I'm confused why everyone thinks Kiwi has MBD? She's pyramided, but no MBD from what I can see :) Besides, the alluded to "2nd picture" is of Maui my hatchling. No pyramiding nor MBD there. I'm pretty sure Seiryu (?) was referring to the OP.
 

Balboa

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LOL
its not everyone Peanut, RubysMom was confused because of the now missing pictures, and she noticed the resemblance of Kiwi to her rescue redfoot, ie the pyramiding.

I'll assume she's still operating under the belief that Pyramiding IS MBD, and has not yet become aware that the "concensus" of this Forum currently runs to Pyramiding not being directly related to MBD, or even nutrition for that matter.

So to clarify once again:
Aidan Posted Pictures of a Redfoot Tortoise he purchased at a local pet shop, and was looking for care advice. In the pictures his tortoise showed both signs of pyramiding and mild MBD.

The TF Members in General feel that;
Pyramiding is caused primarily by inadequate hydration from improper environmental conditions with possible other influences (diet)
MBD is any number of conditions in which the shell has been weakened and/or made porous primarily from Diet, but possibly influenced by environment.

This all means that a tortoise with obvious MBD may or may not have pyramiding and vice-versa.

I know this may not be a PERFECT definition, just trying to clarify so we can hopefully get this thread back on track.
 

Ruby's Mom

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PEOPLE!!!!! to clarify!!!!!! I never saw Aiden's pictures. I only saw PeanutbuttER's pictures and I only said the pictures you are looking at are peanutbutter's, not Aiden's. I left it at that. I assumed there may have been other pictures but I did not say anything else. I did not launch into a scientific explanation of the tortoises' shells but I DID say that Kiwi and Ruby do look similar due to the fact they both have slight pyramiding. AND Aiden did mention having to re-format.

Pictures of Ruby

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56208368@N08/5192010749/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56208368@N08/5192010355/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56208368@N08/5192606248/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56208368@N08/5192605914/
 

aidanhd500

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PIC_0063.JPG here are the photos again..... sorry :) he has been eating more but activity is still low. he is awake but hiding. i am upgrading to a better heat emmiter this weekend so its up at 86 farenheit i will also get cyrpress mulch soon any other thoughts or sugestions would be helpful
 

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toxodon1

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I would try to feed him greens, small amounts of fruit, and some really small amounts of animal protein from things like worms, slugs, and cat food.
 

Balboa

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Sounds like you're doing good Aidan. I'm still waiting for the out of the woods feeling with Adrienne myself. Just can't seem to get her activity level up. All we can do is keep giving them the best treatment we can.
 

Ruby's Mom

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PeanutbuttER said:
I'm confused why everyone thinks Kiwi has MBD? She's pyramided, but no MBD from what I can see :) Besides, the alluded to "2nd picture" is of Maui my hatchling. No pyramiding nor MBD there. I'm pretty sure Seiryu (?) was referring to the OP.

No Peanutbutter, I was trying to point out at that particular moment that your pictures were the only ones present, and that Ruby resembles Kiwi. Now I'm sorry I even opened my mouth.
 
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