Need Identification Help

[Nosfurrettu]

Hi all!

I am fairly new to Tortoise keeping (two years in) and I would love some help identifying my little man. I originally bought him an Eastern Hermann's but now that he's almost three, I am having doubts on if he really is.

He looked like a typical eastern neonate when we got him but now that his coloration has matured, my husband and I are wondering if he's a hybrid or even a western.

I have read through basically every identification guide and video at this point and I'm still stumped. I love my little Bowser but if he is a western, I can't legally own him in my state.

Any help would be appreciated!

Reasons I am confused:
•he has two black bands on his under shell (they seem defined to me but I could be confusing myself)
• he has the triangle thigh plastrons and a split supracaudal shield
•he has a faint wisp of a mark on his fourth scute
•he has a light yellow scale/spot on his cheek and he has like green yellow on his head
•his keyhole is very defined
•his pectoral and femoral seams are very even (at least to me and my ruler)

 

[zovick]

@HermanniChris should be able to help you.

Have you seen this from his web site? https://www.hermannihaven.com/comparing-hermann-s-tortoise-subspe

 

[Nosfurrettu]

@HermanniChris should be able to help you.

Have you seen this from his web site? https://www.hermannihaven.com/comparing-hermann-s-tortoise-subspe

Yes I have. This site and his video comparison on YouTube are why I am now puzzled. I would love Chris's opinion if he's ever on.

 

[zovick]

Yes I have. This site and his video comparison on YouTube are why I am now puzzled. I would love Chris's opinion if he's ever on.

You bought the tortoise as an Eastern Hermann's, so at worst it might be a hybrid. Most people selling Western Hermann's know what they have and charge substantially more for them. I see no problems with your ownership of the animal. Why look for trouble?

From whom did you buy it? If it was a true tortoise breeder rather than a flipper, he/she should know what they had.

 

[Nosfurrettu]

You bought the tortoise as an Eastern Hermann's, so at worst it might be a hybrid. Most people selling Western Hermann's know what they have and charge substantially more for them. I see no problems with your ownership of the animal. Why look for trouble?

From whom did you buy it? If it was a true tortoise breeder rather than a flipper, he/she should know what they had.

I don't want trouble but morally I'd feel like **** having a species that's endangered. And if he was, I'd rather he be in the care of a conservation.

I got him from morphe market from a seller called Cameron Lamb exotics. I'm not certain what westerns go.

 

[zovick]

I don't want trouble but morally I'd feel like **** having a species that's endangered. And if he was, I'd rather he be in the care of a conservation.

I got him from morphe market from a seller called Cameron Lamb exotics. I'm not certain what westerns go.

Western Hermann's babies sell for about $500 (and 3-4 years ago, they were even more), the Easterns are more like $150 to $250.

Here is an ad for Westerns from Chris Leone. It's a few years old now, but is from relatively close to the time you bought your tortoise. In this ad you can see the point about the prices for Westerns being higher: https://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/threads/last-few-2019-western-hermanns-tortoises.699057/

From what I have seen of his ads, I believe Cameron Lamb to be a fairly reliable seller, but do not know him personally.

If you paid less than $300 or so for your tortoise, one would have to believe that the seller thought it was an Eastern Hermann's.

 

[Yvonne G]

Far as I know, exotic (not indigenous) tortoises don't fall under the state or federal laws. If it turns out your tortoise is a western, there's no reason you can't keep him.

 

[Nosfurrettu]

Western Hermann's babies sell for about $500 (and 3-4 years ago, they were even more), the Easterns are more like $150 to $250.

Here is an ad for Westerns from Chris Leone. It's a few years old now, but is from relatively close to the time you bought your tortoise. In this ad you can see the point about the prices for Westerns being higher: https://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/threads/last-few-2019-western-hermanns-tortoises.699057/

From what I have seen of his ads, I believe Cameron Lamb to be a fairly reliable seller, but do not know him personally.

If you paid less than $300 or so for your tortoise, one would have to believe that the seller thought it was an Eastern Hermann's.

Yes I did pay less than $300 for him. It's been breaking my heart thinking I might lose him so I appreciate your messages here.

I sent an email to Chris on his site so hopefully he'll respond back.

 

[SinLA]

I"m not following. Why do you think you can't keep him if he's a western herman's?

 

[Nosfurrettu]

In Washington State it's illegal to own any endangered species.

 

[zovick]

Far as I know, exotic (not indigenous) tortoises don't fall under the state or federal laws. If it turns out your tortoise is a western, there's no reason you can't keep him.

Very good point which I didn't even consider.

 

[zovick]

In Washington State it's illegal to own any endangered species.

Did you see Yvonne's Post #7? She thinks that the WA State law applies only to native endangered species and would not include species from outside the US.

I will see if I can learn anything more about this point.

 

[Nosfurrettu]

Far as I know, exotic (not indigenous) tortoises don't fall under the state or federal laws. If it turns out your tortoise is a western, there's no reason you can't keep him.

I'll look again at the statutes. Every time I've looked it it just says "it's illegal to have and endanger animal". A very broad statement. It's also illegal to have desert tortoises up here (unless your a zoo or science center) cause it's too cold for them to live happily.

Washington is strict on animals

 

[Nosfurrettu]

Did you see Yvonne's Post #7? She thinks that the WA State law applies only to native endangered species and would not include species from outside the US.

I will see if I can learn anything more about this point.

Any additional help would be wonderful. I'm combing through again as well.

 

[zovick]

Any additional help would be wonderful. I'm combing through again as well.

We should know something fairly soon. I just emailed the WDFW Law Enforcement Division for clarification on which endangered species are included or excluded from their statutes.

Personally, I do not think endangered non-native tortoises are illegal in WA. I know a lawyer there who has owned Radiated Tortoises for many years.

 

[Nosfurrettu]

We should know something fairly soon. I just emailed the WDFW Law Enforcement Division for clarification on which endangered species are included or excluded from their statutes.

You're an angel! Thank you!

I found one part that said bog turtles and gopher tortoise are prohibited. But nothing further on other tortoises.

 

[zovick]

You're an angel! Thank you!

I found one part that said bog turtles and gopher tortoise are prohibited. But nothing further on other tortoises.

I received a reply from WDFW. You have nothing to worry about. The law only applies to WA state native species.

Here is the reply:

"Thank you for contacting Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife Enforcement. WDFW’s mandate only covers wildlife species native to the state of Washington, but there may be violation of U.S. Code, which would be under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, or of state laws pertaining to the release or retention of non-native species, endangered or otherwise, which may be the source of the confusion. I would recommend reaching out to those agencies for clarification."

So there is no reason endangered species from other countries (or even this country, apparently) cannot be owned in WA State as long as they were legally obtained (and not native to WA State). Just FYI, I held a USFWS Captive Bred Wildlife Permit for over 40 years and have very good working knowledge of the Federal laws. Owning Western Hermann's Tortoises in this country (or in your state) is not a crime and not regulated by WA law according to the fellow who wrote the above email to me.

The only tortoise or freshwater turtle on the WA state list is the Northwestern Pond Turtle, by the way. Here is a link to the list:

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-03/wa-state-listed-and-candidate-species-list.pdf

 

[Nosfurrettu]

I received a reply from WDFW. You have nothing to worry about. The law only applies to WA state native species.

Here is the reply:

"Thank you for contacting Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife Enforcement. WDFW’s mandate only covers wildlife species native to the state of Washington, but there may be violation of U.S. Code, which would be under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, or of state laws pertaining to the release or retention of non-native species, endangered or otherwise, which may be the source of the confusion. I would recommend reaching out to those agencies for clarification."

So there is no reason endangered species from other countries (or even this country, apparently) cannot be owned in WA State as long as they were legally obtained (and not native to WA State). Just FYI, I held a USFWS Captive Bred Wildlife Permit for over 40 years and have very good working knowledge of the Federal laws. Owning Western Hermann's Tortoises in this country (or in your state) is not a crime and not regulated by WA law according to the fellow who wrote the above email to me.

The only tortoise or freshwater turtle on the WA state list is the Northwestern Pond Turtle, by the way. Here is a link to the list:

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-03/wa-state-listed-and-candidate-species-list.pdf

You're the best! Thank you for taking the time to do that. I'm glad I don't have to lose my little man!

 

[zovick]

You're the best! Thank you for taking the time to do that. I'm glad I don't have to lose my little man!

Yes, now you can sleep peacefully tonight.

By the way, if you should hear anything from Chris Leone on his opinion of exactly what it is that you have, I would be interested to know what he says.