Hermann's Identification and Shell Deformity?

[Steph1040]

Hello All! I have been getting a lot of good advice from this forum since I got my tortoise 2 months ago. I have wanted a Hermann's since I was 21 and at 31 it became a reality. They were not particularly easy to find where I am finally found one in a reptile hobby store (i know. Probably not as good as a breeder or adopting). Anyways my question is can any one tell me if his shell is a problem on his back scute? It seems to be divided up and I don't know what to google to find more info. Lastly, i have looked over all the identification documents and still cannot decide. Could he be a mix? He seems to have some but not all the qualities of a western. The price i bought him for seems to be too low to be a western though. Plus im in the US where i hear theyre rare. Thank you all for your help and advice!

 

[nicoleann2214]

He’s very cute!

 

[Steph1040]

He’s very cute!

Thank you!! To be honest I picked him bc thought he was the cutest out of all of them in the three places i found that sold tortoises!! No other tort I saw was as brightly colored. He has a great personality too. I love him so much i can't handle it sometimes ?

 

[wellington]

That's a split scute. Perfectly normal for some torts to have that. It's by no means fool proof, but a lot of those with split or extra scutes turn out female.
It's a beautiful tortoise and extra special with the split.

 

[wellington]

I guess it's a double split. The scute on the side looks split too.

 

[Steph1040]

That's a split scute. Perfectly normal for some torts to have that. It's by no means fool proof, but a lot of those with split or extra scutes turn out female.
It's a beautiful tortoise and extra special with the split.

Thank you! That makes me feel better. They told me it was probably a male by the tail so maybe someday Benjamin's name will have to change to Benjamina.

 

[zovick]

Thank you! That makes me feel better. They told me it was probably a male by the tail so maybe someday Benjamin's name will have to change to Benjamina.

The tail DOES look like that of a male tortoise. Over the years I have seen several males with split scutes, so I vote for male as being the correct sex.

Not sure of the species, but it looks like an Eastern Hermann's Tortoise to me. @HermanniChris What say you?

 

[wellington]

I didn't even look at the tail. That will be the better tool for sexing.
It used to be the thought that all split or extra scutes meant female. Over the years this has been proven wrong and that both sexes can have them. I think it leans to female being the majority, but I don't think by much.

 

[TeamZissou]

This is a tough one! The only thing I feel confident saying is that this is definitely not a pure Western. I think it's either a pure Dalmatian or a Western x Dalmatian hybrid.

Here are the qualities that make me think it's a pure Dalmatian:

• Heart-shaped greenish scale pattern on top of head (though it's not clear if this is a 100% indicator)
• Lack of ingunial scutes (though hard to tell from the pics)
• Humeral/pectoral suture is U-shaped rather than V-shaped (V is found on Eastern)
• No black marks on the gular scutes (which would indicate hybrid)
• No black marks outside plastral stripes (which would indicate hybrid)
• Overall plastral pattern looks very Dalmatian

However, here's what makes me doubt that, and think Western x Dalmatian:

• Overall vibrancy of the yellow color (I am under the impression that only Westerns have such bright yellow)
• The general shape of the head looks sleeker than the Dalmatian head on Chris' posts and website

Thee seller may have given you a lower price due to the split/extra scutes, or it could have reflected the fact that it's a Dalmatian.

If you planned to start a breeding group, I would wait to breed this tortoise until you know for sure what it is. It's a bummer that Chris hasn't been on here in about 3 months; he's a real expert. @GBtortoises is the only other person I know who might be able to help us with a definitive answer.

Comparing Hermann's Tortoise Subspecies | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

This has a good section on Hybrids:

How to Identify Hermann's Tortoises

HOW TO IDENTIFY HERMANN'S TORTOISES This is a newly updated (2018) thread explaining how to tell apart the subspecies or "types" of Hermann's tortoise (Testudo hermanni ssp). Before reading on, it's crucial for you to understand that telling the Hermann's tortoises apart is not always easy. In...

tortoiseforum.org

Either way, you've got a good looking tortoise that you can enjoy. It looks to be a male.

 

[Steph1040]

This is a tough one! The only thing I feel confident saying is that this is definitely not a pure Western. I think it's either a pure Dalmatian or a Western x Dalmatian hybrid.

Here are the qualities that make me think it's a pure Dalmatian:

• Heart-shaped greenish scale pattern on top of head (though it's not clear if this is a 100% indicator)
• Lack of ingunial scutes (though hard to tell from the pics)
• Humeral/pectoral suture is U-shaped rather than V-shaped (V is found on Eastern)
• No black marks on the gular scutes (which would indicate hybrid)
• No black marks outside plastral stripes (which would indicate hybrid)
• Overall plastral pattern looks very Dalmatian

However, here's what makes me doubt that, and think Western x Dalmatian:

• Overall vibrancy of the yellow color (I am under the impression that only Westerns have such bright yellow)
• The general shape of the head looks sleeker than the Dalmatian head on Chris' posts and website

Thee seller may have given you a lower price due to the split/extra scutes, or it could have reflected the fact that it's a Dalmatian.

If you planned to start a breeding group, I would wait to breed this tortoise until you know for sure what it is. It's a bummer that Chris hasn't been on here in about 3 months; he's a real expert. @GBtortoises is the only other person I know who might be able to help us with a definitive answer.

Comparing Hermann's Tortoise Subspecies | hermannihavenhome

www.hermannihaven.com

This has a good section on Hybrids:

How to Identify Hermann's Tortoises

HOW TO IDENTIFY HERMANN'S TORTOISES This is a newly updated (2018) thread explaining how to tell apart the subspecies or "types" of Hermann's tortoise (Testudo hermanni ssp). Before reading on, it's crucial for you to understand that telling the Hermann's tortoises apart is not always easy. In...

tortoiseforum.org

Either way, you've got a good looking tortoise that you can enjoy. It looks to be a male.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me! This is great information. The vibrancy of his shell and yellow/green head markings were really stumping me.

I currently have no plans to breed him. Just want to give him the best tortoise life possible.

 

[William Lee Kohler]

Not a deformity at all and won't cause health problems. Some of us favor tortoises with such artistic differences.

 

[GBtortoises]

Based on the visible physical characteristics, this tortoise is a male Dalmatian Hermann's, Testudo hermanni hercegovinensis. Split scutes, much like temperature sex determination (TSD) is not a guarantee of one gender or the other. While the majority of tortoises born with split or additional scutes are usually females, not all are. I have seen a small percentage of males with the trait. There are a few different theories of what causes split scutes, none have been definitively proven or disproven. Higher temperatures (hence more females with the trait), lack proper air exchange during incubation development (increased carbon dioxide) and heredity have all been claimed to cause split or additional scutes.