New information website!!

[Gennifer11]

Can you guys take a look at this website. Someone just introduced me to this site and as Im reading through it... the recommended care for sulcatas differs greatly from what I've learned. What are your thoughts about this? Thanks!

http://ojaisulcataproject.org/pyramiding.html

 

[AmRoKo]

I have been to that site, it has good information, different isn't bad. I enjoy a plethora of information from various sources.

 

[rearlpettway]

The pyramiding section was not written to prevent pyramiding in hatchlings.

 

[Yvonne G]

Actually, that's not a new site. It's been around since 2011. I don't think it's been updated. There is good info and outdated info. The pictures are well worth looking at.

 

[keepergale]

There have been some spirited discussions on this/our site with regards to pyramiding. Both Andy and our regular members did excellent jobs of making their cases. Both sides are really not dealing with the problem from THAT different of an approach.

 

[Tom]

That website and organization is headed by a man I'm proud to call friend. Dave Friend. HA!

Seriously though, I've had several conversations with Dave about this subject. He's been keeping sulcatas a long time and he parrots the old outdated incorrect info. When he saw all the hoopla about humidity and hydration, he made that website to counter what he saw as blasphemous, revolutionary, info that was so contrary to the info he'd been following for so many years. The problem was that the old info, Dave's beloved info, is based on all sorts of incorrect assumptions. Over the years we have learned more about how sulcatas actually live in the wild. We've learned from this new info, as well as tons of observation of the results of keeping sulcatas in a wide variety of captive environments, and we simply KNOW BETTER NOW.

Dave is a great guy and he always means well. Since creating that text he has largely opened his mind due to the influence of many people and has personally recanted to me in phone conversations. He, like everyone else, cannot argue with the results.

Here is what I continually propose to anyone who questions all this and doesn't know what to do: Get 12 sulcata hatchlings and raise 6 my way, and 6 the old dry way. Raise them side by side in their different enclosures and feed them the same quantity of the same food. The results will be astounding and you too will understand which methods are better and why. If you don't feel you have the time, money or interest in doing such a study, that's okay. Its been done for you thousands of times here on the forum and out in the world.

 

[Gennifer11]

I'm glad that everyone is familiar with this website. I think i was most concerned with how he says that protein has no affect on pyramiding and how sulcatas don't need soaking or humidity.

On a somewhat related note, I'm starting to worry that my high humidity levels are hurting my tort rather than aiding him. I've wrote about it in the thread "reoccurring sickness".

My sulcata has a RI, that was cured with antibiotics but now he has another RI. my humidity is always 80% but he keeps getting RIs. Am I doing him harm? Maybe the high humidity levels are preventing him from fully getting better? His shell growth is incredibly smooth as of right now.

 

[DeanS]

I like Dave's site...but I'm more 'out with the old...in with the new' or as I like to call it...'the tried and true'! Tom is far more gracious than I am...but then again...politically correct ain't solving issues!

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm glad that everyone is familiar with this website. I think i was most concerned with how he says that protein has no affect on pyramiding and how sulcatas don't need soaking or humidity.

On a somewhat related note, I'm starting to worry that my high humidity levels are hurting my tort rather than aiding him. I've wrote about it in the thread "reoccurring sickness".

My sulcata has a RI, that was cured with antibiotics but now he has another RI. my humidity is always 80% but he keeps getting RIs. Am I doing him harm? Maybe the high humidity levels are preventing him from fully getting better? His shell growth is incredibly smooth as of right now.

Not to take this thread OT, but are you sure the temperature is above 80F at all times? Humid/cool = not good Humid/warm = good

 

[Gennifer11]

Yes @yvonne, I have everything set on a rheostat thermometer, I also have a probe thermostat in his sleeping hide, and I have one of those zoomed laser thermometers for everything else.

 

[rearlpettway]

That website and organization is headed by a man I'm proud to call friend. Dave Friend. HA!

Seriously though, I've had several conversations with Dave about this subject. He's been keeping sulcatas a long time and he parrots the old outdated incorrect info. When he saw all the hoopla about humidity and hydration, he made that website to counter what he saw as blasphemous, revolutionary, info that was so contrary to the info he'd been following for so many years. The problem was that the old info, Dave's beloved info, is based on all sorts of incorrect assumptions. Over the years we have learned more about how sulcatas actually live in the wild. We've learned from this new info, as well as tons of observation of the results of keeping sulcatas in a wide variety of captive environments, and we simply KNOW BETTER NOW.

Dave is a great guy and he always means well. Since creating that text he has largely opened his mind due to the influence of many people and has personally recanted to me in phone conversations. He, like everyone else, cannot argue with the results.

Here is what I continually propose to anyone who questions all this and doesn't know what to do: Get 12 sulcata hatchlings and raise 6 my way, and 6 the old dry way. Raise them side by side in their different enclosures and feed them the same quantity of the same food. The results will be astounding and you too will understand which methods are better and why. If you don't feel you have the time, money or interest in doing such a study, that's okay. Its been done for you thousands of times here on the forum and out in the world.

AMEN AND WELL SAID MY FRIEND✌️

 

[Gennifer11]

I have always had my tort at least at 80% humidity. But now I am starting to consider otherwise, since I think he may be prone to RIs whenever his immune system is low. My vet recommends 60% humidity at least until his sickness goes away. I think after the sickness goes away I will try to maintain 60-70% from then on. His shell growth has been incredibly smooth thus far so I will watch closely for any changes.

 

[Tom]

I have always had my tort at least at 80% humidity. But now I am starting to consider otherwise, since I think he may be prone to RIs whenever his immune system is low. My vet recommends 60% humidity at least until his sickness goes away. I think after the sickness goes away I will try to maintain 60-70% from then on. His shell growth has been incredibly smooth thus far so I will watch closely for any changes.

Go ahead and try it.

But I want to make sure you understand that the humidity and warmth is not your problem. If that did any harm or caused any problems all of mine for the last 7 years would be having issues, and just the opposite is true. None of them are. I'm talking about hundreds of hatchlings of several species, not to mention the hundreds or thousands all over the globe that are being housed this way now. Come to think of it, since its hot and humid in the wild where they come from, all the wild ones would be sick too.

I know you are frustrated with the re-curring issue, but I don't want you to waste time and resources chasing the wrong culprit while the real guilty party is still at large.

 

[Gennifer11]

Yes I understand tom, I really appreciate all the advice too! I'm just worried that this specific tort may have a low tolerance for humidity and that "could" be what triggers it. In all honesty, I have no clue what's going on with him! I have seen the good (the very obvious smooth shell growth) but I cannot see the inside of his lungs . I'm very anxious for the vet to get the culture results back.

Tom, I'm just curious about something. The sulcatas are born in the monsoon season, but wouldn't they have to adapt the the dry arid weather when the monsoon season is over? And they would be in the burrow less and less when they grow older? Does this sound about right?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have a desert type tortoise that has abscessed sinuses. He has had every antibiotic in the book. He's kept at 85 degrees ambient temp, with a low humidity factor. But he's 5 years old, not a hatchling or yearling. So for a while lack or low humidity won't hurt him like it would if he was a baby.
He blows bubbles constantly. He was so abscessed that he has a hole in the top of his head that also blows bubbles. I think I printed a picture with a toothpick sticking out of it. Anyhow, I have found that azithromycin works the best. Baytril is too strong and makes the tort stop eating and Naxcel is not strong enough. But I have seen azith just knock out a URTI. And Abscess Nose is not blowing bubbles today.....yea!

I was kicked off of Tortoise Trust a few years ago, because the guru said Sulcata don't need humidity at all. So I argued with him. Seems he's changing his mind. I'm too mature to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!"

 

[Tom]

Tom, I'm just curious about something. The sulcatas are born in the monsoon season, but wouldn't they have to adapt the the dry arid weather when the monsoon season is over? And they would be in the burrow less and less when they grow older? Does this sound about right?

No one, including me, knows the answer to this question. It is my best guess that they go underground in the dry season. If they stayed topside, they would get eaten or dried out.

According to the author of "The Crying Tortoise" sulcatas spend 95% of their lives underground, so no, I don't think they spend much time topside except for the rainy season after they hatch. I think its the hot dry end of the rainy season and all their cover brush drying up and dying that drives them to go underground. Its just too hot top side. This is what happens with all of mine when I move them outside too. They won't go underground on their own for months, then once it gets hot, they can't wait to get underground all on their own. I've got no reason to think the wild ones wouldn't figure this out the same way.

My friend from Senegal was pretty surprised at how our sulcatas were all out and about walking around above ground. Apparently they don't do this over there.

 

[ascott]

I have always had my tort at least at 80% humidity. But now I am starting to consider otherwise, since I think he may be prone to RIs whenever his immune system is low. My vet recommends 60% humidity at least until his sickness goes away. I think after the sickness goes away I will try to maintain 60-70% from then on. His shell growth has been incredibly smooth thus far so I will watch closely for any changes.

If what you are doing is not working for the tortoise in your care ..then it is crazy to continue ..try tweaking a bit and see what works..there is no one size fits all..

 

[ascott]

I have always had my tort at least at 80% humidity. But now I am starting to consider otherwise, since I think he may be prone to RIs whenever his immune system is low. My vet recommends 60% humidity at least until his sickness goes away. I think after the sickness goes away I will try to maintain 60-70% from then on. His shell growth has been incredibly smooth thus far so I will watch closely for any changes.

Have you considered creating a warm humid hide in lieu of an entire enclosure with forced excessive high humidity? This would offer choice of warm and humid as well as dry out areas...

 

[Alaskamike]

I'm going to say something here, and it is only speculation, so take it with a grain of salt...

High humidity at 80f + is not likely your direct problem with the RI, however, high humidity can increase both bacterial and mold growth - both which can cause health problems. You cannot see bacteria, of course, but you cannot always see certain types of mold spores either. Some are very toxic.

If I were you, I would do a sanitizing cleaning of the enclosure, take everything out, and with a 1:10 bleach solution clean all the surfaces, top included. . Clean the water dish, rocks, everything. Change the substrata to fresh, Let it air out for a day, keep tort in a Rubbermaid container or something, - then put torts back in.

It couldn't hurt, and it might help.

 

[Tom]

Have you considered creating a warm humid hide in lieu of an entire enclosure with forced excessive high humidity? This would offer choice of warm and humid as well as dry out areas...

Why don't you tell the group which humidity level works best for all the baby sulcatas you have raised?

Oh wait... you've never raised a single one...

There is nothing "forced" or "excessive" about simulating the conditions these babies would be experiencing after hatching in the wild during the hot, wet African monsoon season.