new pyramiding ideas.

[Maggie Cummings]

I got so excited when I read this I actually got goose bumps. I think Vicki is on to something that just might revolutionize the way Leopard and Sulcata hatchlings are kept in the future. Vicki is a friend who breeds leopards in Alabama (I think) and she just posted this on the AT list and I think it is great. I want feed back ...

I have found that captive Leopards pyramid easily and I am determined to
> figure out why.
>
> My first hatchlings were starting to get bumpy within a couple of months.
> I'm careful with their enclosures, keeping high humidity and several
> micro-climates and feed only a natural and nutritious diet, so this was
> driving me crazy.
>
> I've been talking with a very knowledgeable friend who pointed out the
> keratin layer on the carapace is very much like human finger nails, and may
> respond to pressure or any outer stimulus just like human nails do.
>
> I started thinking about baby Leos in the wild. They would never be out in
> the open where they could be spotted and picked off by predators. Most
> likely, they would always be under something; grass clumps, bushes, and
> other vegetation, outcroppings, other animals burrows, etc. Something would
> always be around and over them, so there would always be outside stimulus to
> the carapace.
>
> Thinking along those lines I have installed a new low hide house for the
> hatchlings and keep it full of moss. This means the hatchlings will have
> moss snug around them when they use the hide house. So far they seem to love
> it.
>
> I also installed several plastic and silk plants that look like grass. It
> hangs over into the pen so the hatchlings have to push through it and it is
> always brushing against their shells as they move around the pen. The pen
> used to be very open, but now the only open area is under the basking lamp.
>
> Call me crazy, but I am seeing an improvement in the condition of the
> shells. The bumpiness of the shells of the older babies has not gotten any
> worse. The youngest baby has kept a near smooth carapace. None of the shells
> have continued to pyramid since adding those things to the pen.
>
> I don't know how much longer these babies will be with me since they are
> for sale, but I am going to keep a photo record of their shells for as long
> as I have them for comparison and start the new hatchlings I get this year
> off in the improved pen to see if it stops any pyramiding from starting.
> Vicki
> http://tortoiseyard.com
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Hi Maggie,
People may laugh at my "experiment" but damn if I think it's making a difference.
I neglected to add that proper diet, not over feeding, high humidity, and keeping the tortoise well hydrated are also things that are needed. I got off on a tangent and forgot to add all that. Will you please bring that up on your group so the info is out there?
I don't mind, go ahead and post. I would like to know if anyone has any other ideas about pyramiding. I am determined to figure out the right combination of things needing to be in place to help with this problem.

 

[spikethebest]

very interesting stuff. thanks for sharing. i am definitly going to pass it on.

 

[Kristina]

Very interesting. Would Vicki be willing to share photos of her set up so we could see some of these things at work?

 

[Isa]

Really interesting Maggie! Thanks for sharing. This article is very interesting, even for Hermy

 

[chadk]

I'm skeptical of the shell stimulation idea - but I like people experimenting and putting things out there to consider. Could be that she is really just reducing direct sunlight \ heat lamp effects, increasing humidity (lower drafts, plants holding humidity better, etc), and \ or reducing stress. So while I don't see any merrit (my opinion only) to the 'stimulation' theory, I like the setup ideas for other reasons.

 

[Tropical Torts]

Those are very interesting ideas. It would be nice to have some pictures of the enclosure you described. Otherwise the concept is very interesting. THANKS for sharing!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I'm skeptical of the shell stimulation idea - but I like people experimenting and putting things out there to consider. Could be that she is really just reducing direct sunlight \ heat lamp effects, increasing humidity (lower drafts, plants holding humidity better, etc), and \ or reducing stress. So while I don't see any merrit (my opinion only) to the 'stimulation' theory, I like the setup ideas for other reasons.

I didn't look at it as 'stimulation' but more like constant pressure. And it makes sense to me. Hatchlings in the wild stay hidden, so there is always pressure on the carapace from whatever they are hiding under. I am very excited about this and I really do think it has merit. It's just a start and it is certainly more then either you or I have done...

 

[terryo]

I always love looking at Vicki's hatchlings, and her Redfoot babies are exceptional.
Wouldn't this be the same concept as a heavily planted vivarium, with lots of moss...or ..leaf litter as a hide?
I don't know anything about raising Leopards, but there are some that don't agree with her set ups for Redfoots.

 

[GBtortoises]

What about the fact that the underlying bone structure is also bumpy on those tortoises that exhibit pyramiding? Very pronounced rings are formed within the scute itself but actual pyramiding of whole scutes are unlined by pyramided bone.

 

[Scooter]

Very interesting idea and worth looking into more I think. Thanks Maggie!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I always love looking at Vicki's hatchlings, and her Redfoot babies are exceptional.
Wouldn't this be the same concept as a heavily planted vivarium, with lots of moss...or ..leaf litter as a hide?
I don't know anything about raising Leopards, but there are some that don't agree with her set ups for Redfoots.

There are people who don't approve of how I keep my animals either. I doubt that there are any of us who have a 100% approval rate...

 

[terryo]

It's true Maggie. I've been bashed on other forums for how I keep Pio, and told I shouldn't give advice as he is my only tort.

 

[dmmj]

I personally would need to see some experiments run control group vs experimental group, but it seems to me just like reinforcing the humidity issue before anything else.

 

[terracolson]

So what kind of moss... i would love to try adding to my hides.... reptile moss i know, but suggestions, i am down to make a snug environment for sleep time at night

 

[kbaker]

What I get from what Vikki is doing is not rubbing/pressure from the hides. I think she is actually making micro-climates. What she is doing will help in open pen type setups.
With food, UVB, sun, supplyments and all aside, two things make the difference here...temps and humidity. With the right balance, I believe it will greatly reduce the chance of pyramiding. For those who live in places with humid summers, you know how it feels...very uncomfortable like the air is pushing on you. I think this pressure is what helps stop pyramiding along with the added hydration. And again, this has to be created with the correct temperature/humidity balance.

Even though some think that 'all tortoises are created equal', I believe Sulcatas are different than Leopards in that Sulcatas will dig deep into the ground and Leopard do not. Leopards and Sulcatas have different micro-climates that they use. Plus, the weather conditions can be very different at times. In the past, I looked into the weather conditions for Mozambique. It is said to be very dry at times which really only means low amount of rain. They have very humid conditions coming off the coast so you can't assume that everything dries up and animals become dehydrated. When there is not drinking water, reptiles can adapt by finding micro-climates that keep them from loosing water and becoming dehydrated.

I will stop now...this is getting long.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

What I get from what Vikki is doing is not rubbing/pressure from the hides. I think she is actually making micro-climates. What she is doing will help in open pen type setups.
With food, UVB, sun, supplyments and all aside, two things make the difference here...temps and humidity. With the right balance, I believe it will greatly reduce the chance of pyramiding. For those who live in places with humid summers, you know how it feels...very uncomfortable like the air is pushing on you. I think this pressure is what helps stop pyramiding along with the added hydration. And again, this has to be created with the correct temperature/humidity balance.

Even though some think that 'all tortoises are created equal', I believe Sulcatas are different than Leopards in that Sulcatas will dig deep into the ground and Leopard do not. Leopards and Sulcatas have different micro-climates that they use. Plus, the weather conditions can be very different at times. In the past, I looked into the weather conditions for Mozambique. It is said to be very dry at times which really only means low amount of rain. They have very humid conditions coming off the coast so you can't assume that everything dries up and animals become dehydrated. When there is not drinking water, reptiles can adapt by finding micro-climates that keep them from loosing water and becoming dehydrated.

I will stop now...this is getting long.

Long has never bothered me...

 

[chadk]

What I hate is when someone thinks they could actually know more than ME. I'm mean, come on... really?? Sheesh.

 

[CELLMASS]

so what causes pyrami-whatever?

 

[chadk]

Ancient Egyptians.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

For over 5 years I've advocated "mist-them-til-they-drip". The "wetter" the carapace.. the "better" the growth. You've seen my 1 - 4 year-olds! There is also a 'renowned' sulcata breeder that has not made this public.. and I'll never tell.

NERD