New tortoise owner, accident on the first night really want to do everything right

[mangococonut]

Hello,

This is a long post and I apologize in advance, I'm just confused and really want to make sure I'm doing everything right.

We have 2 new baby leopard tortoises that we brought home from a show last week. Unfortunately it was at the very end of the show and rushed we came home with them in a wooden turtle house table with cypress bark and I was confused exactly on how to house them with that (we were almost taking a bigger russian then switched for the babies, I'm still confused why but a little girl walked by and told my daughter how good the little ones were so we switched). I also think getting two was a problem as I'll explain further down We also bought a powersun lamp, the mini lamp holder (she said it was all she had left and there were no hangers or clamps so I was told to put on the wire top of the wooden box cage), the good food (starts with M - sorry she was kind and dumped some in a bag and let me buy it but I read the name on this forum so I'll know for re-ordering), 4 dishes, and cactus. I have no idea how old they are, I contacted them to ask but still haven't heard back, also had some housing questions but haven't heard back on those either (best way to keep warm at night, keeping one or two wet areas, etc.).

Anyway, on the way home both were in the same container and one seemed to walk all over the other and kind of knock him around. I didn't think much about it at the time just that he would be more of the alpha of the two. The first morning they woke up cold to the touch in their little box. I turned off the mercury vapor lamp at night because it had been on for 10 hours. The house was 70 degrees.

I fed, soaked in the bowl the first day and everything seemed good. I went to the pet store to buy the coconut coir because that's what the babies at the show were on and he told me the wooden box was a fire hazard and I should buy his ex terra low medium terranium, he was also out of the light holders and told me I could put the light on the wire. The box stayed very warm with the light on, and I had read posts about the glass aquarium being bad on yur site so I just left with the coconut coir and more confusion (that's when I texted the people who sold him to me again). That night I kept the lamp on as long as possible to make sure they were as warm as could be. I checked on them at 10ish, then went back again at 2am and found one of the babies (the one that usually gets pushed aside for eating, etc.) UPSIDE DOWN DIRECTLY UNDER THE HEAT LAMP NOT MOVING. I almost had a heart attack so i picked him up, he was extremely warm to the touch but moved his leg, blew on him a bit and ran him to the bathroom and started to make the water luke warm baby bath temp to soak him but nothing too cool bc I didn't want to totally shock him, I then gradually took it to more of a luke warm. I soaked him for quite some time until he started to walk away. I brought him in my room with me and kept him with me until morning in a plastic container box that I put a massage heating pad under only on one side with the coconut coir (not damp). That was three days ago. I have no idea how long he was upside down or how it actually happened. It wasn't right at the edge or corner, but was near one of their dishes (I have double everything in the cage). Each night since I've checked the cage constantly and he's not climbing and haven't had issues. He was definitely climbing the walls when we brought him home and is much more the explorer than the other.

The next day I went back to the pet store and bought the exo terra terranium. I had read on your site about not trapping humidity, tables, etc. so I thought I was set.

Today I read the post from Tom about ending pyramiding and now I'm even more confused as I believe they need to be in a more higher walled aquarium with much higher humidity than this new cage permits. I'm happy to buy whatever necessary, but I want to do it right. The new glass cage not nearly as warm as the previous wooden box. I've put that outside and sunned them today for a few hours with food and water (it has a hide for shade). I've attached the heat strip he sold me a strip to the bottom of the glass for the hide area (he sold me a half log that is quite large) but it's just not that warm. He told me not to put the plants or rocks they didn't need it, and not to use the sphagmum or to wet the cage because they would get sick and die (the other lady told me to add a cup of water to their hide to keep it moist and a cup in the corner in the outside area) but instead have a corner with the hay which I bought.

If Tom or anyone can direct me in proper place for care I would appreciate it. I read all 36 pages of the ending pyramid'g post but there were three older links on feeding care that no longer worked. I also am curious if anyone can tell me if having them under the MVL all week without humidity has caused pyramid'g and if my little baby who flipped over will have any issues long term. I called the vet and he told me to give it time, there wasn't much they could do if he was eating, pooping, drinking normally which he was. I read several posts all night that night on your site where it happened to others and many turned out fine, one passed away that I read about a week later after being fine all week so I'm just doing my best.

I don't want them cold at night, I want the right humidity, I want them to eat properly (been giving the mizuno food everyday soaked slightly and they won't touch it - they just gobble the spring mix and the cactus). I googled what is the "protein" everyone keeps talking about is that they need and I can't figure it out specifically.

I know that was a ton of info, I was hoping to read it all on my own but I'm even more confused now if I'm doing this correctly and I don't want more time to pass and I do things wrong.

Thanks so much!!!

 

[wellington]

Sorry, I don't have time to read your whole post at this time. What will help you though, is reading Toms threads below in my post. The Sulcata threads also apply to your leopards.

 

[crimson_lotus]

Pet stores very rarely know enough about tortoises to give decent advice. It's really a shame. You will definitely need humidity for leopard babies, and you will need to keep it warm at night because they will get sick if it is cold. Please disregard everything the pet store said to you. Plants and rocks are a great idea for their habitat and should be encouraged. The MVB you have is great, I would keep that, but for night time use I would buy a ceramic heat emitter which emits all heat and no light. It is imperative that you keep the heat up for these guys, especially for babies.

Here is a care sheet for baby leopards:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/

Please read through this. How large is your enclosure and how big are your babies?

Pairs are not a good idea, when they come of age it can be very problematic. You won't know the sex until then, either. Two males will be territorial and can seriously injure one another. A male and a female is also not great, especially in smaller enclosures, because the male will pester the female all the time and cause a great amount of stress, and the female can never escape like they could in the wild. 2 females is probably the best scenario, but still not condoned, as they can still bully each other and declare dominance. Please be careful and be ready to separate them at any time.

 

[crimson_lotus]

Sphagnum moss is fine, wetting the cage (but don't make it TOO wet, and it has to be warm!!) is fine, and I think the best enclosure you could have would be something you make by hand, with wood - but be sure to line the bottom with something so the wood doesn't mold from the humidity. The bigger the better. I would also recommend purchasing a hygrometer to monitor the temperatures and the humidity. The dials they sell at the pet store are often inaccurate and don't work. I use a digital acu-rite one and place it at substrate level, it was $10 at home depot.

If the dishes you purchased from the seller are the ones you find at the pet store (they have a high ramp) I would recommend getting rid of it. Those are flipping hazards and could possibly have flipped your tortoise over. They're pretty difficult for tortoises to get in and out of. I would use a terracotta saucer and dig it into the substrate so they can walk in and out of it easily. The saucers are also good for food because when they eat their beak scrapes the bottom, keeping their beak trimmed. You could also get this result with a rock or a piece of slate too, though.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Off to a bit of a bad start and given the wrong and conflicting advice.
Happens to the best of us.
You've done the right thing by coming here. The most complete and up to date tortoise care information there is is here.
You've already received some good advice. Read the care sheets here carefully and if there's still anything you need to know please ask. There are many experienced leopard keepers here.
Good luck and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum to you and your new tortoises.
After the initial set up it will all become easier and very rewarding.
They are wonderful animals.

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's a link to a thread I made that give you some pictures of what kind of supplies to buy:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/suggestion-for-setting-up-a-baby-habitat.105903/

Welcome to the Forum! It's very important to keep those babies warm at night. This is what you need for night time:

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hello and welcome to the TFOfrom AZ . Leopards rule ! I was almost late to work reading your post . But I made it . I would say stop worrieing about pyramiding , just read the care pages here . And you will be doing great . You ve already got some great advice . I've been raising leopards for about 15 years and have 22 . And get them outside during the day !

 

[mangococonut]

Oh thank you everyone for all the kind notes, quick help and making sure I had the right and updated links. Thank you especially for link to the baby habitat with all the photos, details, exact supplies, and pics of the chopped food - that's exactly what I needed.

The zoomed tortoise house table which I put outside today is 36x24x12 and I let them play in it for about 2 hours. We also sat with them and let them play in the grass for about 1/2 hour. They ate and I soaked them outside.
I'm not sure of the age because I still haven't heard back from the lady but I've attached a picture of my daughter with the container that the lady gave us if anyone knows.
I have definitely now realized that two is not good, I just had no idea at the time and thought they'd keep each other company, the lady said they'd sleep next to each other.
Their new glass enclosure that's inside is 36x24x18 but by the pics from the link above I'll need to by another new one. It has a screen top and a split door special ventilation system and I think that's not a good thing. I bought two thermometers and humidity readers so each side would have one and also like you've said above, they're reading different numbers. Unfortunately I also bought the dishes from the store that they have trouble climbing in and out. In any case I now have the information to set them up correctly and that's what matters. If anyone has any suggestions on how to get them to eat the mizuno I'd appreciate it. I currently soak one for each of them in water until they are just soft, then I put it on their dish with the cactus and the spring mix. They eat everything except the mizuno. If I only put the mizuno they don't touch it. Thanks so much again to everyone for the help, I truly appreciate it!

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Wow, they are tiny and very beautiful.
Some torts hate Mazuri, including my Tidgy.
She likes the smell, but will spit it out if she tastes it.
I tempt her with a Tasty treat and when she opens her mouth wide, I pop one deep into her mouth and she swallows it, but be careful not to choke your tiny babies.

 

[leigti]

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry that you have received so much bad advice. There is so much conflicting information out there and the people you think should know like at the pet store, the breeders and veterinarians often don't know anything. Stay here on this site and it has all the information you will need. Purely for safety I would not worry about a damp a substrate until you have night heat. Cold and wet equals respiratory infection. Soak them daily and then when you have 24 hour heat you can add water to the substrate. Don't be discouraged by all the stuff you bought, I think most of us have done that. I bought a lot of stuff I didn't need and I had done my research. So it wasn't as bad as it could have been, I remember the stuff the pet store wanted me to buy and they gave me a pretty hard time when I refused. I think the little wooden tortoise house is great for outdoors for now. You can take the divider out and put in a couple plants instead for shade, don't let them overheat in the sun. Here are a couple items that you will find very useful. You can get them at any hardware store. The first is a temperature gun. It is a very basic one, they make fancier ones but this one works well. I think it cost me $15 on Amazon.
And this is a great gauge for humidity and temperature.
$10 on Amazon keep us posted on your progress. We love pictures around here of tortoises and their enclosures. Your daughter and the tortoises are all very cute.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Here is all the info you need in one place. Just click and rad these. I wish you had found us before you brought them home to the wrong set up, but hopefully the damage done will be minimal. They need the correct temperatures round the clock, but it still needs to be dark at night. The best way to set this up is with a basking lamp on a timer set for 12 hours to simulate the sun. Adjust the height to get the correct temperature under the bulb. Then you need a CHE set on a thermostat to keep the ambient around 80 day and night. Its all in here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Don't delay. Babies have a very small margin of error. There is not time for you to figure all this out the hard way. Good luck and questions are welcome.

 

[mangococonut]

Oh thank you so much for the pics and specifics, I will get what you specified tomorrow. I was able to borrow a friends extra moonlight reptile 100 watt bulb for this evening, I made a smaller house with the hole cut out of the plastic box inside their enclosure as suggested and I put in super hot water to dampen coconut coir with a thin layer of dry on top. I used both lamps to warm it before putting the babies inside and they're sleeping now. They are substantially warmer but I'm not sure of the exact temp bc the two thermometers are reading different, but it's warm for sure. I just turned off the under cage sticky heating pad because I noticed both were still in the new plastic box hide, but they moved off the heat pad area since the overhead light has been turned on. If I need to turn it back on just let me know and I'll keep watching them to make sure they're warm and not too hot. Tomorrow I will get the CHE set on a thermostat and the basking lamp with a timer. I'm guessing this means I don't use the Powersun on them but if that's not accurate please let me know.

Thank you again so much, we are huge animal people and I've never a young animal and don't want to start now.

One more question, is there something should be looking for with the little one that was upside down hot and not moving the other night? Their shells are looking a little different and underneath but I honestly don't know what I'm looking at.

Thanks again!

 

[leigti]

The CHE provides heat only and is good at night. You should use the power son mercury vapor bulb during the day for heat and UVB. I'm not sure about the CHE during the day but if it is on a thermostat then it shouldn't come on unless the temperature gets too low. A more experienced person will be able to tell you and I'm sure the care sheet says something about it. By tomorrow night you will be feeling much more confident I'm sure.

 

[leigti]

If the one that flipped over is eating and pooping and sleeping then he is probably fine. Are you going to make two separate enclosures or keep them in one? Two will definitely be required sooner or later. The signs of bullying are very subtle but you can worry about that in a few days after everything else is ready post pictures of each tortoise top and bottom and people can tell you if there's anything to worry about.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

What I do is run the Mazuri through my coffee grinder . And sprinkle it over my vegys to soak up the extra water and it seams to make my vegys last 2-3 weeks and all of my leopards eat it .

 

[mangococonut]

I'll post pics tomorrow am thank you. I just spent the last 45 minutes trying to get the more dominant one a place to sleep. It didn't matter where the mellow one went, inside the hide or outside he followed and kept climbing on him and kind of nudging at him and I have if that's been happening every night after I go to sleep. I see it with their food even though I have two dishes. I finally made a second box in and now they both seem happy. I'll have to figure something tomorrow, I don't think it's realistic to have two separate enclosures inside my house, it's just not that big inside and I know it's too early for them to be in the yard I did read the pairs thread that Tom included and 3 is definitely not an option so perhaps I can look into re-homing, such a bummer - thought not getting these at the pet store but going to a show would protect me. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

What I do is run the Mazuri through my coffee grinder . And sprinkle it over my vegys to soak up the extra water and it seams to make my vegys last 2-3 weeks and all of my leopards eat it .View attachment 126676

Good advice, Grandpa.
But does Mazuri make nice coffee?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Good advice, Grandpa.
But does Mazuri make nice coffee?

the best

 

[mangococonut]

Thank you for everyone's help! I said I would take pics today but it wasn't such a good day. Now they are in separate enclosures, warm, hopefully all set up and they'll be doing better and back to normal tomorrow and I can take pics.

 

[Carol S]

Welcome to the Forum. You will find valuable information on the Forum to raise healthy tortoises. If you bought your supplies from PetSmart or Petco you can return the things you do not need as they have a great return policy with or without a receipt. I buy my supplies from Petmountain.com or Amazon.com as they have great prices. Enjoy your new little tortoises - they sure are pretty babies.