Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry

[wellington]

You are 100% correct. This is the internet. People have nothing to base knowledge, experience or expertise on other than what others say about them, or they show themselves.

Do you think a new person coming here knows the difference between Tom and a Troll, and who to listen to? I doubt it. How can they research and figure out who is better? They both have lots of posts, likes and mentions. However one is clearly more qualified than the other on Sulcata's. Maybe over the course of a year or more, this person will learn who to listen to. However, in that year, their tortoise may continue to live in a dire situation, when it could have so easily been prevented.

If we are not allowed to point this out or ask for proof, then the new people are stuck scratching their heads in confusion. And if you look at the original thread, more than one new person mentioned they were confused and did not know who to follow. I guess they better research more and look into their crystal ball.

The point we are making is: Everyone has an opinion, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. HOWEVER, bad opinions are still bad and we should be allowed to make this clear. And ANY OTHER forum, where someone asked for an expert (this is someone with first hand experience, or knowledge) and gets posts such as the ones from this Troll, would be removed in an instant from that thread and a PM sent to be careful in the future.

If you allow such posts to continue, you are no better than the Petco down the street. We all seem to bash and shame them, but yet when a Troll posts the same "opinion" on here, it is allowed and apparently even backed by some people.

Once again I ask: Who suffers the most from allowing this to continue? What is the reason us "experts" take time to help others? Do you want us to stop helping?

All opinions are allowed, good or bad. Whose opinion do we believe that it's a bad opinion? Who is that one "boss" that calls the shots of who is right and who is wrong? Tom thinks he is right, so do many of us. Ascott thinks she is right and there may be those that agree with her, I don't know. You can ask them for proof, you can call them out on their experience, you do need though to do it and stay on topic of the thread, or make a new thread and call that person out on that thread, but you have to do it respectfully.

If the newbie spends just a little time on this forum, doing a little research, they will get the info you are trying to get through to them. There are so many of us that passes on "Toms" way. That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.

Besides, it's looking like this whole argument may have start because someone opened their mouth posting, not realizing the original thread was about Sulcatas.

Btw, this forum has one Boss and that is Josh. The moderators DO NOT make the rules, we only enforce them. We do the best we can and sometimes that gets hard, like the thread this all started from. Every one of us tries to be fair. Sometimes we ask the other mods, in order to be fair. Some times, we don't know where to delete, edit or close a thread, because we don't always agree either and no matter what we do, someone will blame us for something. We try our hardest to warn members to stay on track so we don't have to moderate the thread, usually we are ignored and the rule breaking continues and we are forced to act.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Civil, friendly conversational tone here...

I'm not missing the point at all. We all know not to stick our heads in the oven, and likewise, in the same way, I know not to raise baby sulcatas in dry desiccating habitats, yet that is what is being argued here. Because that is what's being argued here, the qualifications of the arguers are being called in to question. Some of the arguers have raised several, or several hundred sulcatas in a variety of ways, while one of the arguers has never raised a single sulcata at all. I think the people who have done it a bunch ought to be thanked for sharing their experience, while the person who has never done it should not be giving advice on this subject at all.

I'm sorry if I came across badly there, Tom, i didn't mean to be rude, but it felt that way to me.
Thank you for the hundreds of informative, helpful and interesting points that you have posted on here and that i have read and, hopefully, learned something from. But sometimes you do come over as a tad aggressive and arrogant, in my opinion. I'm sure you're
not, but it does seem that way to me.
It is possible for someone to offer advice on sulcatas having read your and other peoples information on this and other internet sites.
Sometimes, it may even be necessary to do so, you cannot answer every thread 24 hours a day on every site on the net or in pet shops etc.
But I do agree that the person offering the advice should at least say 'i have heard', or whatever.

 

[Yvonne G]

You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.

 

[Zeko]

All opinions are allowed, good or bad. Whose opinion do we believe that it's a bad opinion? Who is that one "boss" that calls the shots of who is right and who is wrong? Tom thinks he is right, so do many of us. Ascott thinks she is right and there may be those that agree with her, I don't know. You can ask them for proof, you can call them out on their experience, you do need though to do it and stay on topic of the thread, or make a new thread and call that person out on that thread, but you have to do it respectfully.

If the newbie spends just a little time on this forum, doing a little research, they will get the info you are trying to get through to them. There are so many of us that passes on "Toms" way. That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.

Besides, it's looking like this whole argument may have start because someone opened their mouth posting, not realizing the original thread was about Sulcatas.

Btw, this forum has one Boss and that is Josh. The moderators DO NOT make the rules, we only enforce them. We do the best we can and sometimes that gets hard, like the thread this all started from. Every one of us tries to be fair. Sometimes we ask the other mods, in order to be fair. Some times, we don't know where to delete, edit or close a thread, because we don't always agree either and no matter what we do, someone will blame us for something. We try our hardest to warn members to stay on track so we don't have to moderate the thread, usually we are ignored and the rule breaking continues and we are forced to act.

Wellington,

You should review the original thread, and see the original initial posts the other admin removed.

We called her out (which as you said is fine, as long as done properly), which Tom and I did. Guess where those posts went?

That is the very point of this. We need to be able to call people out on what they say (respectfully), in order to ensure misinformation is not spread.

Censorship, removal and deletion is not okay, especially when the content was done so in a proper way.

 

[Zeko]

You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.

Tom and I's original "contradicting" posts were more than fair and respectful. That is the exact problem. They were removed and cited with:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Experts:-Humid-vs.-Dry.114612/#post-1065511

Now Wellington is saying it can be done, if done in a proper way. So we are slowly making progress here with the admins. And ultimately it will only help the new people and their tortoises.

We are also already in discussion with Josh in regards to some changes we feel are needed. So we will see what comes of that.

 

[Yvonne G]

I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.

 

[Zeko]

I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.

We understand fully. I think you should read the original thread.

 

[mike taylor]

There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.

It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.

On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.

Are you saying I don't know what I'm talking about? I have three sulcatas all healthy . Two leopards all healthy . My humidity isn't constant . I think the big point missing here is understanding micro climates. If it's to hot or dry they go down hole or under a bush . What do you think the humidity is top side or out in the open? To have humidity stay the same all over is going to work no problem Tom has provided us with great info . But in Texas you don't have to do that . I'm not one to argue . I like keeping things simple why fight temperature and humidity if you already have humidity . People need to understand things have to be tweaked . It's not in stone to do things one way . Tom even tells you this . By the way thanks Tom, Kelly,ken, and Yvonne . These are the people I turn to .

 

[wellington]

Excellent example Yvonne. Thank you for clarifing.
It really is that simple guys.

I too didn't see the original threads until after it had been modified.

 

[mike taylor]

Doesn't this look like it's working! It's a little Tom and common sense . You have to try different stuff to make it work for you . Have fun arguing I'm going back to chat to pick on Newt Swinger.

 

[Turtlepete]

If that was the intent of his post, that "people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject", then I absolutely agree and it is quite sensible. Unfortunately, in the real world, this will simply not happen. Again, these individuals will always be present in our society. I understand it gets very difficult to decide what to do in situations where members should absolutely challenge assertions made by inexperienced persons, but in every case I have witnessed this has turned into a downward spiral of cursing, name-calling and general hurt feelings across the board. Humans are a species that can seldom discuss opposing points without hurt feelings. The best situation I can see is where the members challenging assertions made by others have the sense not to allow a confrontational or aggressive tone to enter their post, and are allowed to do so. The kind of censorship that goes on around here is detrimental to the integrity of information offered here, and in the end creates a confusing environment for anyone new to tortoise keeping which is the last thing we should seek to achieve. However, I understand from the moderator's point of view just how hard it is to decide what to let stay and what to remove, and where to draw the line. A very real problem that is very difficult to decide how to solve...

 

[Zeko]

If that was the intent of his post, that "people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject", then I absolutely agree and it is quite sensible. Unfortunately, in the real world, this will simply not happen. Again, these individuals will always be present in our society. I understand it gets very difficult to decide what to do in situations where members should absolutely challenge assertions made by inexperienced persons, but in every case I have witnessed this has turned into a downward spiral of cursing, name-calling and general hurt feelings across the board. Humans are a species that can seldom discuss opposing points without hurt feelings. The best situation I can see is where the members challenging assertions made by others have the sense not to allow a confrontational or aggressive tone to enter their post, and are allowed to do so. The kind of censorship that goes on around here is detrimental to the integrity of information offered here, and in the end creates a confusing environment for anyone new to tortoise keeping which is the last thing we should seek to achieve. However, I understand from the moderator's point of view just how hard it is to decide what to let stay and what to remove, and where to draw the line. A very real problem that is very difficult to decide how to solve...

Spot on. And that is why we are spending our time discussing this. In hopes the moderators can become a bit more flexible in their censorship, and in return we will try harder to present our opposition in a respectful way.

If I didn't see hope out of all of this, I wouldn't waste my time. Im sure other people posting here must feel the same way.

 

[wellington]

Spot on. And that is why we are spending our time discussing this. In hopes the moderators can become a bit more flexible in their censorship, and in return we will try harder to present our opposition in a respectful way.

If I didn't see hope out of all of this, I wouldn't waste my time. Im sure other people posting here must feel the same way.

With all due respect, this isn't our first rodeo, nor is it the arguing members. We have preached this many times before. Unfortunately, it is not the moderators that needs to become more flexible as much as it's the members that need to understand the rules and not go outside of them. Yes, there is always room for improvements, but this pertains to members and moderators.

 

[CharlieM]

That is why I feel it's important for members to "parrot" Toms info, but don't treat it as their own.

With all respect could you please explain how this works?

 

[wellington]

With all respect could you please explain how this works?

Sure, I refer people with leopards and sullies to please read Toms threads located at the bottom of my post. I will also tell them about the proper temps and humidity and then refer them to atoms threads. Also, Toms threads are always in my signature. I will parrot his information/knowledge but will not try to come off as if it's my experience.

 

[CharlieM]

And you feel this "parroting" is as effective as Tom answering a post or a member searching on their own?

 

[wellington]

And you feel this "parroting" is as effective as Tom answering a post or a member searching on their own?
Do you think members respect parroted information?

Well they would be pretty stupid if they didn't as there are a lot of members that would not know of Toms experience without the many members that pass it on. If you don't like or respect it, then don't you dare ever pass on any information that you have heard or read, that's the same thing. Everyone almost daily does it. What's wrong with it? Tom is one person who has a life, a busy one at that. How many threads do you think he could answer in a day, week? No where near the amount that the members parroting his info can!

 

[CharlieM]

Well they would be pretty stupid if they didn't as there are a lot of members that would not know of Toms experience without the many members that pass it on. If you don't like or respect it, then don't you dare ever pass on any information that you have heard or read, that's the same thing. Everyone almost daily does it. What's wrong with it? Tom is one person who has a life, a busy one at that. How many threads do you think he could answer in a day, week? No where near the amount that the members parroting his info can!

I'm not saying he's right or wrong I just find it very curious. That's all.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Parroting another's info points someone in what you think is the right direction. Sometimes other people can explain things better, have more detailed info or is a teacher you've learned from.
In this case, Tom has spelled out a lot of information in those past posts and it's still good, useful info. Why not share that?

I do my best to share my personal experiences and relevant opinions. But I will occasionally refer a member with a question to another member where I feel they would benefit from hearing the other person's answers. That's a good thing, not bad.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

But I do agree that the person offering the advice should at least say 'i have heard', or whatever.

Just this morning, with a different tortoise group, I did just that. The original emailer had feeding questions. Although I had no direct experience with the advice given, I have heard it from many sources that the advice works. Logic dictates that it would work, so I echoed the information while stating I had no direct experience with the subject. It was easy. Here is the series.

“We recently got a baby sulcata from a pet store. He actually came to them by accident and they didn't know much. They had been feeding him only romaine lettuce while they had him and now I can't get him to eat anything else. I'm not sure of his age but he is only about 3" right now. I have tried several other food options but he just won't touch it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you,
Gloria" (changed name)
“Greetings Gloria,
Although I've no direct experience in this regard, folks I know in similar situations as yourself have stated that the easiest way to change over to a healthy diet is to take the food item they like, (romain) and chop it very fine with the proper foods, (broad leaf weeds, grasses) and make a mixture. Start with a romain heavy mix, and gradually switch to a healthy heavy mix. Make everything chopped fine enough and mixed enough that the little guy can't pick and choose what he wants. Soon the switch will be complete, and you will be on your way to a healthy, happy tortoise. Remember, no fruits.

Cowboy Ken"