Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry

[Tom]

Apology from me to you and to all of the newbies that will read this post.

If I were a newbie, I would greatly appreciate a thread like this one. So many times we have confused noobs come here after reading 15 websites and getting tons of conflicting info. A thread like this demonstrates first hand that many people offering advice on the internet have no idea what they are talking about. It helps people get a feel for who to listen to and who to disregard.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?

Sorry, I can't use a computer properly yet!
I think you're deliberately missing the point. I wouldn't need to ask anyone 'expert' that this action would be stupid and dangerous.
I could accurately advise people myself that it was not a good thing to do.

 

[Tom]

...I am not on the hight humidity closed chamber wet soggy tortoise enclosure train as a cure all for a perfect shell, which in itself does not mean the tortoise as a whole is healthy--we see too many smooth looking babies deaths shared here on this forum).

No one is asserting any such thing anywhere on this forum.

Further, the dying and dead smooth looking babies are dying from a lack of humidity and hydration, which is what we are trying to combat here, and what you appear to be promoting here.

 

[Zeko]

Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .

There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.

It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.

On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.

 

[Tom]

...what solid proof, research, documents do you have in your possession to show that this is the best way to assure a healthy tortoise...and I don't mean the information in the last couple of years....and even more narrowed down---not the information here from the last couple of years....I mea out in the real world?

Why would you disregard the results of hundreds or thousands of "real world" people and dismiss those facts? I assure you that my tortoises and everyone's tortoises on this forum are part of the "real world".

The whole world is full of obvious and overwhelming evidence of raising any species of tortoises in any multitude of ways.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

May I extend an offer to you as a demonstrate good will? I would like to give you a free sulcata hatchling, properly started and hand delivered to your door for you, so that you can raise it whatever way you think is best. I only ask that you share the whole experience here on the forum. Tell us what all the enclosure temperatures, humidity, and other parameters are and give us regular updates on the growth and health of your tortoise. If the eventual adult size and temperament of the sulcata species prevents you from doing this, I will extend the offer that you can return the tortoise to me at any time you decide it is getting too big or destructive. I offer this because I and several others here know what your results will be because we have first hand experience. We just have to show you now...

So what you're saying is you believe that you are right and the other person is wrong? Fine. That's opinion.
But you are willing to ' sacrifice' a baby tortoise to prove your point? That's wrong, in my opinion.

 

[Zeko]

So what you're saying is you believe that you are right and the other person is wrong? Fine. That's opinion.
But you are willing to ' sacrifice' a baby tortoise to prove your point? That's wrong, in my opinion.

This is exactly the point. Each time we let these people with no experience or knowledge on the topic offer horrible advice, we are essentially sacrificing the original posters tortoise.

Imagine if someone told you the way to fix a water damaged cellphone was to put it in the microwave. This will get rid of the water and jumpstart the phone. And when you go to refute this statement, your post gets removed and this horrible information is left for others to read and potentially follow.

 

[wellington]

But wouldn't someone who had stuck their head in an oven hundreds of times, say an experienced oven repair man for example, be more qualified to give advice about the inner workings of an oven than someone who has only ever seen pictures of ovens, but never so much as even used one?

And wouldn't you want to point out that the person who had never even used or seen an oven should probably not be the one advising other new oven owners on how to use ovens that they actually have?

Now that Tom, could stop many of us from passing on your info. What is the difference? Like I have tried to say a million times, no, you don't need the experience first hand, as long as you are passing along info that is from an experienced person. Either pass on your own experiences and show up proof, or pass on the info of the experienced ones makng it clear it is their info.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

This is exactly the point. Each time we let these people with no experience or knowledge on the topic offer horrible advice, we are essentially sacrificing the original posters tortoise.

Imagine if someone told you the way to fix a water damaged cellphone was to put it in the microwave. This will get rid of the water and jumpstart the phone. And when you go to refute this statement, your post gets removed and this horrible information is left for others to read and potentially follow.

But your information may not be better. you've just proved it.
I have an industrial microwave oven and if I do what you suggest, I can guarantee it will destroy my phone. your information about me was not complete.

 

[wellington]

There is a time and place for people's uneducated opinions. It however, is not in a topic where a tortoises' future is at stake. When a person asks how or what the best way to raise a healthy, smooth tortoise is, I expect only people with knowledge and first hand experience to give such advice.

It is rather bewildering to think that people are here for anything other than the wellbeing of people's tortoises. And it's a further shame to have people back up and support these such people.

On any other forum, these people are called "trolls" and dealt with accordingly. However, with these moderators, we can't even call out a troll when we see one. If we do, our posts are removed and the person is allowed to continue trolling. Bad for us, horrible for the tortoise we are trying to help.

An active member of the forum is not considered a troll. Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Yes, it would be nice for proof to back up their opinion, whether it's their proof or that of another. I also don't agree with only so called experts can pass along info. As I stated already, any member can and should pass along the hot and humid way for at least leopards and Sulcata's. (Picked per subject of thread) The proof is below in my post. While doing so, be sure to let it be known, it's not your info or experience, but it's Toms, or whomever it may be. This is the way it is passed along. If we did not pass(parrot as some like to say)it along, there would not be very many tortoises being raised hot and humid. Tom can't answer every single thread or posting.

 

[Zeko]

Now that Tom, could stop many of us from passing on your info. What is the difference? Like I have tried to say a million times, no, you don't need the experience first hand, as long as you are passing along info that is from an experienced person. Either pass on your own experiences and show up proof, or pass on the info of the experienced ones makng it clear it is their info.

You are agreeing with what we are trying to show and change. People need to be held accountable for the information they share or spread. The original post has someone asking if humidity or no humidity produces smoother, healthier tortoises.

A troll comes into that thread, and says humidity is bad, kills tortoises, and should never happen. The OP and several others mention they are now confused by the conflicting information. Tom and I post how this troll has no experience on the topic, and is spreading horrible information. Our posts get removed/deleted, and the trolls opinion is allowed to stand, with the potential of many people reading it and taking it as accurate, solid advice.

This is the very problem with this forum. Censorship when it comes to pointing out the lack of knowledge of a person on the topic, removal or deletion of posts, and the spreading of the very thing we are all trying to fix: Old, outdated, horrible advice.

 

[wellington]

Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.

 

[Zeko]

An active member of the forum is not considered a troll. Because someone has a different opinion does not make them a troll. Yes, it would be nice for proof to back up their opinion, whether it's their proof or that of another. I also don't agree with only so called experts can pass along info. As I stated already, any member can and should pass along the hot and humid way for at least leopards and Sulcata's. (Picked per subject of thread) The proof is below in my post. While doing so, be sure to let it be known, it's not your info or experience, but it's Toms, or whomever it may be. This is the way it is passed along. If we did not pass(parrot as some like to say)it along, there would not be very many tortoises being raised hot and humid. Tom can't answer every single thread or posting.

An active member who makes posts with no understanding on the topic, who causes harm to others (in this case, the tortoise/person asking for advice) is a troll.

There is no way around that.

 

[Zeko]

Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.

Yes. And new members who come to this site for solid advice, typically ask or search for advice. They end up with good advice and bad advice. However, pointing out the experience level of a person, their knowledge, or their understanding on the topic is apparently reason to censor, delete, or remove that post.

Tell me who will suffer if this continues to happen?

 

[wellington]

You are agreeing with what we are trying to show and change. People need to be held accountable for the information they share or spread. The original post has someone asking if humidity or no humidity produces smoother, healthier tortoises.

A troll comes into that thread, and says humidity is bad, kills tortoises, and should never happen. The OP and several others mention they are now confused by the conflicting information. Tom and I post how this troll has no experience on the topic, and is spreading horrible information. Our posts get removed/deleted, and the trolls opinion is allowed to stand, with the potential of many people reading it and taking it as accurate, solid advice.

This is the very problem with this forum. Censorship when it comes to pointing out the lack of knowledge of a person on the topic, removal or deletion of posts, and the spreading of the very thing we are all trying to fix: Old, outdated, horrible advice.

Yes, I do agree with you. I get it. However, there is a way to say things and if you do it in an offensive or disrespectful way to one of our members, then it's not tolerated. The three main member s arguing are just that, members. There is no troll on this thread. If there were a real troll, they would have been banned. Someone with a different opinion, whether they have proof or not or just an opinion, is allowed to voice their opinions whether we like it or not. This is why people have to use their heads and look for proof, and not just take their word for it.

 

[Tom]

I have no interest nor patience for the amount of arguing that seems like a daily event on this forum, but the idea you seem to be presenting here is alarming. Prevention of members being "allowed" to give their opinion is just absolutely absurd. You want prevention of sharing your opinion unless you have the prerequisites deemed appropriate? Who will decide on these qualifications? If we are only going to allow sharing by "experienced" keepers then a large majority of this forum is going to be excluded from most discussions that aren't asking how cute a picture of someones tortoise is. I understand the problem of members acting as if their opinion is law when they have absolutely no real experience in the topic…It is a problem indeed and a frustrating one. But I see no reason for anything to be done as far as being "allowed" to give an opinion. The kind of forum that would put in place a rule like that is simply not one I have any desire to be a part of.

Applying common sense to advice given to you and "opinions" presented to you is an integral part of any learning process. There is always going to be the person on a podium telling everyone how things should be done without a half-*** clue what they are talking about, and unfortunately they are a part of society which we simply must deal with and go on happily with our lives. But if people don't have enough common sense to take what that person is taking with a grain of salt, then we can't expect them to ever have a firm understanding of any aspect of husbandry.

IMHO….
I suggest everyone avoid from making any thread title containing the word "expert". They seem to be the biggest bickering-fests, since certain individuals feel the need to continually redefine and challenge the meaning of "expert".

You make good points here Pete.

On paragraph one: You are completely right about this, but I think you are missing Zeko's point. He's not saying that only the "Chosen Ones" should be allowed to express an opinion. I think he's saying that people with no experience on a subject should have the sense to not offer specific advice on that subject. Zeko, please correct me if I'm wrong.

On paragraph 2: The problem here is that many of these "podium speakers" make a very convincing speech, and many noobs have recently been expressing confusion about who to listen to. YOU know who to listen to, and I know who to listen to, but how does a brand new person figure this out? I come on and give my spiel, and then Ascott follows up with all sorts of dire predictions and believable sounding points, and how does the new person know who to believe? Someone has to say something and a discussion like this one needs to be had.

On paragraph 3: I agree. I don't know what defines an "expert", or who decides. I don't consider myself one, but there appear to be some people who think I consider myself one. When it comes down to two people arguing a single point from opposite side, I do think there is value in each person explaining what they are basing their assertions on. When I say "humid and hydrated", I have a lot of past experience to back up what I say and lots of photos to prove it. When someone like Ascott makes her assertions with absolutely no experience either way to back it up, I think attention needs to be given to that fact. Would you agree?

 

[Zeko]

Yes, I do agree with you. I get it. However, there is a way to say things and if you do it in an offensive or disrespectful way to one of our members, then it's not tolerated. The three main member s arguing are just that, members. There is no troll on this thread. If there were a real troll, they would have been banned. Someone with a different opinion, whether they have proof or not or just an opinion, is allowed to voice their opinions whether we like it or not. This is why people have to use their heads and look for proof, and not just take their word for it.

The point we are making is: Everyone has an opinion, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion. HOWEVER, bad opinions are still bad and we should be allowed to make this clear. And ANY OTHER forum, where someone asked for an expert (this is someone with first hand experience, or knowledge) and gets posts such as the ones from this Troll, would be removed in an instant from that thread and a PM sent to be careful in the future.

If you allow such posts to continue, you are no better than the Petco down the street. We all seem to bash and shame them, but yet when a Troll posts the same "opinion" on here, it is allowed and apparently even backed by some people.

Once again I ask: Who suffers the most from allowing this to continue? What is the reason us "experts" take time to help others? Do you want us to stop helping?

 

[Zeko]

Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.

You are 100% correct. This is the internet. People have nothing to base knowledge, experience or expertise on other than what others say about them, or they show themselves.

Do you think a new person coming here knows the difference between Tom and a Troll, and who to listen to? I doubt it. How can they research and figure out who is better? They both have lots of posts, likes and mentions. However one is clearly more qualified than the other on Sulcata's. Maybe over the course of a year or more, this person will learn who to listen to. However, in that year, their tortoise may continue to live in a dire situation, when it could have so easily been prevented.

If we are not allowed to point this out or ask for proof, then the new people are stuck scratching their heads in confusion. And if you look at the original thread, more than one new person mentioned they were confused and did not know who to follow. I guess they better research more and look into their crystal ball.

 

[Tom]

Sorry, I can't use a computer properly yet!
I think you're deliberately missing the point. I wouldn't need to ask anyone 'expert' that this action would be stupid and dangerous.
I could accurately advise people myself that it was not a good thing to do.

Civil, friendly conversational tone here...

I'm not missing the point at all. We all know not to stick our heads in the oven, and likewise, in the same way, I know not to raise baby sulcatas in dry desiccating habitats, yet that is what is being argued here. Because that is what's being argued here, the qualifications of the arguers are being called in to question. Some of the arguers have raised several, or several hundred sulcatas in a variety of ways, while one of the arguers has never raised a single sulcata at all. I think the people who have done it a bunch ought to be thanked for sharing their experience, while the person who has never done it should not be giving advice on this subject at all.

 

[Zeko]

But your information may not be better. you've just proved it.
I have an industrial microwave oven and if I do what you suggest, I can guarantee it will destroy my phone. your information about me was not complete.

Exactly. See how you just pointed that out?

Tom and I did that same thing and our posts were removed and put into the "off topic" section, or deleted. Now imagine if this was a cellphone forum and I posted to put your phone in the microwave to fix water damage. Other people with knowledge corrected me, only to have their posts removed, and mine to stay. Do you think a few people over the course of time would search, see my post, follow my post and wreck their phone? You bet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/19/microwave-iphone_n_5850576.html

Have a read.

Common sense is not all that common. And you know what assuming does, right?