Experts: Humid vs. Dry

Zeko

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Proper temps change instantly once too much constant high humidity is applied in an attempt to counter other points of less than desirable husbandry...and additionally, there simply is not enough years and years of proof that supports the second part of your claim....there are other ways to raise healthy tortoise than to force them to live in an entirely unnatural wet environment....

You are correct, as you add humidity, temperatures drop (in an open topped enclosure). But once again, with proper husbandry your thermostat or you manually checking will show you that you need to increase temperatures and you will do such.

There is tons of ways to raise sulcatas, just like there are tons of ways to raise humans. There are some healthy humans and some overweight, unhealthy, damaged ones.

Which one would you prefer? Also, feel free to prove us all wrong and posts pictures of your tortoises. If I was a betting man, I know whois i'd say would be smoother/healthier.
 

jaizei

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Debate the topic, not another member's experience. If you feel the need to alert anyone of another members experience, do it through PM.
 

ascott

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My reds are over a year. I've kept my humidity at between 70-80% and daily soaks. I see them drink each day. They eat a nutritious, varied diet. And so far they look pretty smooth. So I definitely think humidity helps.View attachment 122850


The species of tortoise you have is a humid loving species ...as long as the tort is not in swamp that is correct humidity (also, if the temps are not incorrect/too cool)....however, not every species of tortoise is as lucky when these high levels of constant humidity are forced on the tortoise....simple as that...I do not see how humans, of any intelligence, confuse this point....humidity is essential but is not the only factor in raising a healthy tortoise..
 

ascott

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What does, "Proper temps change instantly once too much constant high humidity is applied", specifically?
How many years does it take? Is >10 not enough?
...there are other ways to raise healthy tortoises than to force them to live in an entirely unnaturally dry environment.

Are you seriously trying to give some naive notion that you do not understand basics? If you have an enclosed space of soil....then add moisture/water to that soil---are you really trying to say that you do not know better that the overall temp/air is not going to change? You act as though folks here (more specifically newer tortoise hosts) should just automatically know this? so since they automatically know this they should just know to automatically tweak the space to adjust the temps? Hmmmm? well, then I am curious as to how it is then that there are so many RI shared on this very forum ---especially since it is supposedly riddled with "experts" in this very subject???? Mystery for sure....a constantly wet environment for lets say russians or CDTs or greeks can and usually does not end well---especially when someone here suggests that high 60s to 70s with wet soil for russians is preferred--idiotic is what that is...ask anyone here who has lost entire colonies of russians due to cool wet conditions....oh wait, now those same people will say that what they said was not that at all.....this is ridiculous....warm and humid hides/areas is beneficial---entirely wet and soggy stale aired enclosures are deadly--no matter what garbage you try to sale....there are some species of tortoise that naturally live in areas of moist soil, high humidity and remain steady temps for night---then there are species that do not....

Oh and one more thing in response....no, 10 years is NOT enough for any type of "revolutionary" changes to be presented as the "new" way, the "proper" way....this is an animal that is designed to live a number of years....in the wild, can you imagine that...?
 

ascott

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You are correct, as you add humidity, temperatures drop (in an open topped enclosure). But once again, with proper husbandry your thermostat or you manually checking will show you that you need to increase temperatures and you will do such.

There is tons of ways to raise sulcatas, just like there are tons of ways to raise humans. There are some healthy humans and some overweight, unhealthy, damaged ones.

Which one would you prefer? Also, feel free to prove us all wrong and posts pictures of your tortoises. If I was a betting man, I know whois i'd say would be smoother/healthier.


See here you also presume all people that come to this site know what to do....you see, there are numerous members that arrive here because they have half assed bits and pieces of info and now have a sick tortoise....someone told them that they needed high humidity so they poured water into the enclosure and then huh nigh came and they turned all of the day heat lights off and there the tortoise sat, all night---night after night --becoming ill....oh yeah, folks don't preach the keep the temps no less than 80 day and night enough....just preach high humidity high humidity--well, that is crap information and there is no proven research to say that high constant closed chambers is the key to a healthy tortoise (the shell may look smooth but that is not the tell all to a captive healthy tortoise--but rather some weird trophy/obsession of a few)....it will take alot of years of "actual research" documented to show that this is "the way" to raise "all" tortoise species....after all that would mean every tortoise should be able to be raised without regard to individual species needs...at least that is what has been being preached lately,....I call bulls^&it...

Also, genes are a HUGE HUGE factor in the outcome of humans--again, to think that what works for one should cover ALL--simply juvenile.

Lastly, I have shared ALOT of pics of all of the tortoise in my care...what does that prove? Do your work and research before you attempt to "shame" someone into a game of show and tell.....let me tell you something CLEARLY...ready? I do not have to prove squat to you....do your research, there are plenty of pics on this forum of the men folk, the redfoots I took on from another forum member and a couple of redfoots that another member here gifted over to me...I am a woman of 47 years and have **** to prove....

Also, how about you "closed chamber forced constant high humidity klan" be sure to also advise people as diligently about minimum temps with those artificial conditions....also, please do give guarantees to those same folks that their tortoise will be just fine if they go on vacation for even a couple of days and their power goes off and those tortoise sit in now cold wet conditions....come on, grow up.

I, unlike a handful of others here, have never ever attested to how smart I am and how my ways are the "way".... I have and will continue to share what works for me in the care of the tortoise in my care....I also share what I know works for others, what should work and why I believe that---again, I never tell anyone that what I say is the almighty way---unlike a handful of others here that do....
 

HLogic

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Are you seriously trying to give some naive notion that you do not understand basics? If you have an enclosed space of soil....then add moisture/water to that soil---are you really trying to say that you do not know better that the overall temp/air is not going to change? You act as though folks here (more specifically newer tortoise hosts) should just automatically know this? so since they automatically know this they should just know to automatically tweak the space to adjust the temps? Hmmmm? well, then I am curious as to how it is then that there are so many RI shared on this very forum ---especially since it is supposedly riddled with "experts" in this very subject???? Mystery for sure....a constantly wet environment for lets say russians or CDTs or greeks can and usually does not end well---especially when someone here suggests that high 60s to 70s with wet soil for russians is preferred--idiotic is what that is...ask anyone here who has lost entire colonies of russians due to cool wet conditions....oh wait, now those same people will say that what they said was not that at all.....this is ridiculous....warm and humid hides/areas is beneficial---entirely wet and soggy stale aired enclosures are deadly--no matter what garbage you try to sale....there are some species of tortoise that naturally live in areas of moist soil, high humidity and remain steady temps for night---then there are species that do not....

Oh and one more thing in response....no, 10 years is NOT enough for any type of "revolutionary" changes to be presented as the "new" way, the "proper" way....this is an animal that is designed to live a number of years....in the wild, can you imagine that...?

What I am trying to convey is that your statement, "Proper temps change instantly once too much constant high humidity is applied", is inaccurate. If you are referring to spraying cold (or hot) relative to the current temperature water into the environment, I agree but adding humidity DOES NOT change the temperature in and of itself. Perhaps YOU need to understand the basics of physics. I asked what you meant by the statement. I made no assumptions regarding the knowledge of anyone. You introduce RI as support for your argument - irrelevant! Your OPINION is that 10 years of successful husbandry using basic guidelines for temperature and humidity is insufficient. Thankfully, the regulatory agencies upon which you depend for testing drugs, foodstuffs, etc. do not hold that belief. The evidence is available. There are multiple ways to raise healthy torts. The warm/humid method just happens to be one of them. The lifespan of the specimen in question is another irrelevant tidbit you introduce in an attempt to support your thesis.

Please don't assume your understanding of the biology of reptiles is superior. I have been in disagreement with more than one of your posts but allow you the opportunity to express your view without attempts to deride you, your understanding or your views. I have over 50 years of experience keeping reptiles and amphibians of various types. I have the educational and practical background to understand the basics and advanced topics - and continue that education and practice to this day without subjective prejudice.
 

ascott

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What I am trying to convey is that your statement, " If you are referring to spraying cold (or hot) relative to the current temperature water into the environment, I agree but adding humidity DOES NOT change the temperature in and of itself. Perhaps YOU need to understand the basics of physics. I asked what you meant by the statement. I made no assumptions regarding the knowledge of anyone. You introduce RI as support for your argument - irrelevant! Your OPINION is that 10 years of successful husbandry using basic guidelines for temperature and humidity is insufficient. Thankfully, the regulatory agencies upon which you depend for testing drugs, foodstuffs, etc. do not hold that belief. The evidence is available. There are multiple ways to raise healthy torts. The warm/humid method just happens to be one of them. The lifespan of the specimen in question is another irrelevant tidbit you introduce in an attempt to support your thesis.

Please don't assume your understanding of the biology of reptiles is superior. I have been in disagreement with more than one of your posts but allow you the opportunity to express your view without attempts to deride you, your understanding or your views. I have over 50 years of experience keeping reptiles and amphibians of various types. I have the educational and practical background to understand the basics and advanced topics - and continue that education and practice to this day without subjective prejudice.




Proper temps change instantly once too much constant high humidity is applied", is inaccurate.


Really, how pre tell would you add humidity without the use of moisture...which is derived from some form of water whether is be cold or warm to begin with....once the heat source is turned off the end result is the same....no matter what form or manner of physics you are referring to, period. So by your words adding humidity/moisture to an enclosure can be done without the use of moisture/water....interesting for sure....

Also, feel free to prove us all wrong and posts pictures of your tortoises. If I was a betting man, I know whois i'd say would be smoother/healthier.

I made no assumptions regarding the knowledge of anyone.

Hmm....interesting again....just because you say that what you said does not mean what the words you used mean....that you did not mean what you said....very clear to me...again, interesting for sure.

You introduce RI as support for your argument - irrelevant

As with any discussion, your opinion---also, irrelevant.

Your OPINION is that 10 years of successful husbandry using basic guidelines for temperature and humidity is insufficient.

Yes, you are correct in understanding my statement on this, and I still stand in that spot...nothing presented so far as a "real" research item has ever been presented that a closed chamber filled with high humidity and wet soil in its entirety is a better way to raise all species of tortoise...correct, that is my assertion.

Thankfully, the regulatory agencies upon which you depend for testing drugs, foodstuffs, etc. do not hold that belief.

Yet again, you have decided that another of your statements apply to me....I have zero faith in "agencies" that profit and pilfer humans and then label those actions for the good of the people....seriously, you seem to be lacking some knowledge in this area...but that can be another thread all together.....foodstuff----that is also another topic all together.....

Please don't assume your understanding of the biology of reptiles is superior

I, unlike a handful of others here, have never ever attested to how smart I am and how my ways are the "way"..

I suppose I could simply state this again....I believe it was conveniently over looked for the purpose of your rant....but continue...

I have been in disagreement with more than one of your posts but allow you the opportunity to express your view without attempts to deride you, your understanding or your views.

I have to admit here you have me stumped....I was not aware that all threads and posts ran through you prior to them being allowed to hit the forum....hum? Interesting... sir, I do not now nor have I ever requested permission or requested a persons permission to have any thoughts nor opinions....EVER in my life and I can assure you that I will never need either from you....thank you for the opportunity to clear that up....I believe now you will never confuse your powers of allowance and opportunity with regards to me....

I have over 50 years of experience keeping reptiles and amphibians of various types. I have the educational and practical background to understand the basics and advanced topics - and continue that education and practice to this day without subjective prejudice.

I have to admit that this entire statement, between the, blah blah blahs says....I consider my self an expert (which still is up for debate in the real world as to what qualifies one to be this) and you not --I am totally alright with the affirmation I am not an expert---which I believe I have stated several times over and over on this forum---without subjective prejudice, I do not agree.

Have a splendid night sir.
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.
I would add though, that it would seem to me, that pyramiding of some tortoises, particularly some groups of leopards maybe genetic, that certain members of a population are predisposed to pyramiding by chromosomal variation and that, in some cases, what we are seeing is evolution in action. In nature, a non-beneficial adaption (pyramiding for instance) would decrease the chances of the genes survival (through not being passed on), unless it was linked to an advantage (I don't know- more efficient digestion for example) that out-weighed the disadvantage.
Domestic tortoise populations and some 'wild' populations do not have all of the natural factors at work that normally contribute to natural selection; disease and predation will be artificially reduced and sick individuals, that would naturally die, are cared for and often survive to pass on their genetic information.
Not siding with anyone, but I would be surprised if, at least a tendency, toward being pyramided is genetic in at least some populations, and this gene is being passed on and thus, avoiding pyramiding in some individuals would be impossible whatever the humidity.
 

ascott

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Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.
I would add though, that it would seem to me, that pyramiding of some tortoises, particularly some groups of leopards maybe genetic, that certain members of a population are predisposed to pyramiding by chromosomal variation and that, in some cases, what we are seeing is evolution in action. In nature, a non-beneficial adaption (pyramiding for instance) would decrease the chances of the genes survival (through not being passed on), unless it was linked to an advantage (I don't know- more efficient digestion for example) that out-weighed the disadvantage.
Domestic tortoise populations and some 'wild' populations do not have all of the natural factors at work that normally contribute to natural selection; disease and predation will be artificially reduced and sick individuals, that would naturally die, are cared for and often survive to pass on their genetic information.
Not siding with anyone, but I would be surprised if, at least a tendency, toward being pyramided is genetic in at least some populations, and this gene is being passed on and thus, avoiding pyramiding in some individuals would be impossible whatever the humidity.
 

ascott

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Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.
I would add though, that it would seem to me, that pyramiding of some tortoises, particularly some groups of leopards maybe genetic, that certain members of a population are predisposed to pyramiding by chromosomal variation and that, in some cases, what we are seeing is evolution in action. In nature, a non-beneficial adaption (pyramiding for instance) would decrease the chances of the genes survival (through not being passed on), unless it was linked to an advantage (I don't know- more efficient digestion for example) that out-weighed the disadvantage.
Domestic tortoise populations and some 'wild' populations do not have all of the natural factors at work that normally contribute to natural selection; disease and predation will be artificially reduced and sick individuals, that would naturally die, are cared for and often survive to pass on their genetic information.
Not siding with anyone, but I would be surprised if, at least a tendency, toward being pyramided is genetic in at least some populations, and this gene is being passed on and thus, avoiding pyramiding in some individuals would be impossible whatever the humidity.

This is the thing, there is not a right side---there are so many people in so many different geographic locations that there simply is not a one way fix all for each and every species of tortoise.....so, "to me", when someone says that their way is the only way and slams people for not doing exactly what they say to --then there is a disservice for the tortoise in care....I personally believe that the more folks on this forum that share what they do and what works for them in their location can give a good pool of information to aid someone is developing their own set up for their specific tortoise in care.... I mean, there are going to be some generalities for a species, but then there are so many variables that need to be taken into consideration to the create a positive and beneficial set up .....

Natural selection is a real and powerful thing....and I do agree with you when you make the point of artificial gene floating....in the wild a tortoise has many offspring....and do so for many reasons---many are indeed destined to not make it, not a pleasant thought but true....and genes passed on from one strong line to another absolutely seems to hold higher rank....
 

HLogic

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Fascinating stuff, though rather confusing for those of us without the experience to be sure which side of this discussion is likely to be correct.
I would add though, that it would seem to me, that pyramiding of some tortoises, particularly some groups of leopards maybe genetic, that certain members of a population are predisposed to pyramiding by chromosomal variation and that, in some cases, what we are seeing is evolution in action. In nature, a non-beneficial adaption (pyramiding for instance) would decrease the chances of the genes survival (through not being passed on), unless it was linked to an advantage (I don't know- more efficient digestion for example) that out-weighed the disadvantage.
Domestic tortoise populations and some 'wild' populations do not have all of the natural factors at work that normally contribute to natural selection; disease and predation will be artificially reduced and sick individuals, that would naturally die, are cared for and often survive to pass on their genetic information.
Not siding with anyone, but I would be surprised if, at least a tendency, toward being pyramided is genetic in at least some populations, and this gene is being passed on and thus, avoiding pyramiding in some individuals would be impossible whatever the humidity.

You are correct, Adam. A prime example of a similar situation in humans is sickle cell trait providing resistance to malaria.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499995/
 

Gennifer11

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@Tidgy's Dad , I like your theory. It sounds like what @Neal was saying about genetics in Leo baby torts where some come out oblong and they tend to be smoother. Maybe the oblong ones have a gene that helps their body grow better and the physical oblong trait is a key identifyer. Similar to humans, some humans have stronger immune systems but there can always be those random people with great systems that still get cancer. It's far fetched... but still a decent theory that some torts are always going to be predisposed to pyramiding, and taking any tort whether they have good genes or not.... give them bad husbandry and they are bound to fail. I'm even starting to think that those torts, in the pictures I posted above, have excellent genes. Maybe great genes paired with excellent husbandy, not including humidity, was able to compensate for the lack of humidity.
 

G-stars

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Agree what works for me might not work for someone else across the country let alone across the world. In California's desert providing humid enclosures is necessary to avoid chronic dehydration let alone pyramiding. However if I lived in Florida (as an example) I wouldn't have to worry about this. Besides every species has different requirements and needs. I don't see anyone saying there is only one correct way to raise a tortoise.
 

wellington

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Like I said on the other post . I would like the names of the experts here . The school, phd or any other thing that makes anyone person an experts here . This is a bundle of information made by different keepers. What works for one may need to be tweaked to work for you . There is no one way layed out to follow . Take the information add a little common sense and run with it .

If I may add, look for their proof of what they are saying. Whether it's their findings/experience they are preaching or the findings/experience of another member/person, ask for their proof or the proof, pictures etc. don't just believe what you read.
 
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