Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry

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wellington

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Just this morning, with a different tortoise group, I did just that. The original emailer had feeding questions. Although I had no direct experience with the advice given, I have heard it from many sources that the advice works. Logic dictates that it would work, so I echoed the information while stating I had no direct experience with the subject. It was easy. Here is the series.

“We recently got a baby sulcata from a pet store. He actually came to them by accident and they didn't know much. They had been feeding him only romaine lettuce while they had him and now I can't get him to eat anything else. I'm not sure of his age but he is only about 3" right now. I have tried several other food options but he just won't touch it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you,
Gloria" (changed name)
“Greetings Gloria,
Although I've no direct experience in this regard, folks I know in similar situations as yourself have stated that the easiest way to change over to a healthy diet is to take the food item they like, (romain) and chop it very fine with the proper foods, (broad leaf weeds, grasses) and make a mixture. Start with a romain heavy mix, and gradually switch to a healthy heavy mix. Make everything chopped fine enough and mixed enough that the little guy can't pick and choose what he wants. Soon the switch will be complete, and you will be on your way to a healthy, happy tortoise. Remember, no fruits.

Cowboy Ken"

Exactly. Just because one doesn't have the first hand experience, doesn't mean they haven't learned enough to still give advice.
 

cmacusa3

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Wow, This thread was not easy to read on my iPhone but I finally made it through the thing. Let me first say that I see valid points from every side here. I have been in combat zones and have taken advice from people that weren't experts but I could tell when to trust someone and when I personally felt like someone didn't have a clue what they were talking about and for my safety not listen to them. Now to what I have experienced on this forum, I have always had a love for turtles and have kept them since I was a kid (long time ago), So when my little girl brought home our first Sulcata I didn't know where to start with the little guy so I took the advice of the reptile store and 2 months later the little guy passed, that pushed me to research more and figure out what happened and what I should do better and that's when I found this forum. I made a few posts and read all I could before getting another. The day came when I decided to get another and I felt like I knew who's advice to trust on this board and have went that route and can"t believe the difference it has made. My Sulcata has went from 50 grams to over 200 in just a few months and has already outgrown my boxies. The biggest problems I have with anyone giving advice on this forum is 1. newbies doing it, you can look at when they joined and when someone has only been on this site for a few months they shouldn't be giving advice. 2. If you don't own that type of tort don't get involved with telling someone what they should be doing. 3. The manner in which advice is given, to many times a few members that I wouldn't consider the "experts" can be really harsh on newbies. 4. I don't think anyone under the age of 30 should be giving advice unless they have some kind of degree or background because they just don't have the true experience that other long time keepers do. Just because someone has posted on here 2000 times doesn't mean they should be giving advice. Personally I look at what Tom and Yvonne and a few other older keepers have posted and follow some of those guidelines, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the pics of their enclosures, and torts to draw a conclusion they know what they are talking about. This forum is amazing and I have passed it on to several others that have changed the care of their torts too. Ok that's enough, off my box, my phone is about to die.
 

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Everyone needs to be sure to follow the advice of those that offer proof. It's really that simple. This is the internet. This is a forum with many, many threads and post about every subject you can think of. Do some research on here and you should, in a short time, be able to figure out who or what info should be followed.

This is true Barb, but the problem is exactly what Zeko pointed out in post #71 above yours. My info explaining that Ascott's advice is based on zero experience is deleted (Its returned now, so thank you to the responsible parties.), but Ascott's bad (in my opinion) info now stands unchallenged to anyone who opens the thread and reads it. I did not insult or attack her. I simply and politely pointed out to anyone reading that she has no experience at all with sulcatas, so that people may read her posts about how to care for sulcatas with a more enlightened mind set.

If people don't want their credibility questioned, then they should not give advice. Plain and simple. My credibility has been called into question how many times by how many people? A lot. I back up my assertions with facts and photos and lengthy explanation of my experiences and results. I see no reason why any other advice giver cannot be asked to do the same in a polite, non-insulting way. A simple, "Hey Ascott, what do you base all this sulcata hatchling advice on?", should be a permissible question that does not get deleted, in my opinion.
 

Tom

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You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.

Was my post pointing out that Ascott had never raised a single sulcata an attack? I took great care to avoid name calling, defamation, or be insulting in any way. I simply stated the facts. I don't mean this as a rhetorical question. I'm really asking if what I typed is viewed as an "attack".

As I said in an earlier post, I invite everyone to do the same to me when I start given specific advice about how to care for species I've never even seen.
 

Tom

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I didn't see the original thread or posts, so I can't talk specifically about them, but here's an example. I, an expert in my field, say that my leather gloves will last longer if I use product XYZ to keep them supple. Susie Cream Cheese comes along and says that she has never used a product on her leather gloves and they've lasted a very long time. I have posted many pictures and threads showing my leather gloves and how beautifully they are aging, while Susie has never shown any pictures or offered any proof that not using a product is good for the gloves. So I post that Susie is just plain weird for not using a product, and she's shortening the life of her gloves, and no one should pay any attention to her. My post will quickly be removed. But if I had offered my pictures again as proof, and asked Susie to please show us her gloves and let us know where she bought them and when, and been a bit more diplomatic in disproving her premise, the post would have been allowed.

What if I plainly point out that Susie Cream Cheese does not now, and has not ever owned a pair of leather gloves, and is actually talking about her rubber gloves? Is that allowed?

What if I explained that the advice Susie is offering is not based on any experience or proven results because Susie has never owned a pair of leather gloves? Okay?

Further, what if I did this because I know for a fact that what Susie is offering as advice is detrimental to leather gloves, and I know this because I treated my leather gloves the same way she is advising prior to discovering, testing and proving hundreds of times over that this newer method of glove treatment simply works better? In other words, I'm trying to save people from having to learn what I have learned the hard way, at their gloves expense. Am I to stand by quietly and politely while Susie offers advice that I know will damage the readers leather gloves?
 

zenoandthetortoise

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You just have to be careful how you contradict a post. You can't come right out and say that poster is a jerk and you can't believe a word they say. You have to figure out a kind way to disprove what they've said. If you attack, your post gets removed. As simple as that.

Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.
 

Zeko

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Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.

Spot on. It appears the admin at the time (quoted in the very first post in this thread) seems to have a liking for Ascott that clearly biases his/her administrating duties. This has been brought up with Josh, and I suspect we won't be seeing much more of this behaviour in the future.

Another thing to remember is just because someone is an admin, does not mean they have final say. As a community, if we feel someone or something is not correct, voice it to Josh. This will not only help the tortoises and community, but will also help to ensure that positive change is made. Without us, the people using this forum, there would be no community.
 

Tom

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Spot on. It appears the admin at the time (quoted in the very first post in this thread) seems to have a liking for Ascott that clearly biases his/her administrating duties. This has been brought up with Josh, and I suspect we won't be seeing much more of this behaviour in the future.

Another thing to remember is just because someone is an admin, does not mean they have final say. As a community, if we feel someone or something is not correct, voice it to Josh. This will not only help the tortoises and community, but will also help to ensure that positive change is made. Without us, the people using this forum, there would be no community.

You know I agree with you on this topic, and I love your message about working toward positive change in the second paragraph above, but I can't side with you on the moderators having bias toward Ascott. Ascott posted on the topic. You and I both know she has no idea what she's talking about, but her post was on the topic. I never saw your post, but I think it must have been like mine if it was removed from the thread. You and I were posting about Ascott and her comments on the topic, but not the topic. This has come up before and the mods were following their assigned protocol. Jaizei pointed this out specifically in his post where he explained why my post was removed. Its not bias in this case. It is a forum guideline that was created to make the forum better and stop personal attacks. In this case you and I agree that it is not making the forum better and that is why I applaud and appreciate your efforts to bring attention to the flaw in this guideline and bring about a change.
 

ascott

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Reread my posts with Ascott. I'm a (wannabe) sulcata newbie and not only was she less than forthcoming about her lack of expertise, she was rude and condescending at every opportunity. Somehow, her posts weren't removed even though they were insulting and conveyed zero information. Why is it that her ramblings are immune from moderating but Tom, et al have their posts removed? Pointing out someone doesn't have any firsthand knowledge is not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Corroborated in this case, by Ascott herself.


Wow....I do not know how you can interpret me clearly stating the species I host as anything other than forthcoming (yes, I read the excuse you used about being on a mobile device, however--you were the one accusing me of something, so I would think you would have done some research before speaking, especially with all of this talk of proving yourself).....Rude and condescending? You absolutely and willingly read each and every word I type and cloak those with "rude and condescending"---I even pointed out to you that this was happening...again, the ears you heard with and not the intent/tone they were typed with.....there is nothing that I can do about your actions and your opinions.

Also, this is not the first thread in which you have had this exact practice with regards to me...this appears to be your manner --in my opinion.---see I clearly said, in my opinion---I site no other member, no book, no research paper.....but based entirely on you and your actions...some things are themselves the proof.

Finally, in regards to Tom; for most of the time I have been a member here on this forum..I took in and digested all that he posted. I have also shared in the past that I agree that humidity is essential for just about every living animal (just about)...the crossroad (opinion) in which I come to with regards to the information Tom shared is that I believe not every species should be housed in the high humidity/constant humidity/closed chamber set up. Tom clearly started out promoting this described set up for Sulcata and Leopard---great, but I am also a person that knows a blanket statement can be hazardous in the realm of life, including tortoise. There came a time when his advise began to consume certain species of tortoise that I know are negatively affected by this sulcata/leopard promotion....this is the point in which I have now been singled out as you have participated in...you see, I know better than to house a CDT in the same conditions he promotes for sulcata and leopard....I also know that russian tortoise should never be exposed to repeated cool/wet environments---as you will end up with a negative outcome. I know it. Now see, Tom only knows what he presumes to know of me...as you in the lynching mob have done as well...that is fine with me. I never came to this Forum in search of a playground group of friends. I initially came to this forum not because I have no knowledge of tortoise but rather because I has no direct knowledge of salivary gland failure in a California Desert Tortoise. That was it. You see, just because someone comes to this forum as a new member, does not in any ways mean they are new to tortoise. I am from a long background of family who have always had reptiles in their life. Not simply tortoise. I am a firm believer that each and every member here (new or old) is as important as the next...which would also include you. If it seems as though I do not reply to any post from Tom, it is because some time back he over stepped his bounds with me, in a personal nature--a personal attack on me due to my difference of opinion with his....in response to that, I simply utilized the forum option of marking a member as ignored. So, it would appear that there may be posts from Tom, based on your post I have quoted here, that again is trying to build himself up by trying to belittle yet another member here.....

I am not concerned with your opinion of me, I learned along time ago to only be concerned with the opinion of those that, personally matter to me. I am not concerned with the opinion of Tom in regards to me--he knows what he is doing. I also am not on this forum to try to win over anyone. I am here, to offer up to other people what I know, what I do and what I know from others that works in the care, custody and control of these forced captive beauties....I also will not allow a voice to go unspoken on behalf of CDTs and Russian Torts when the information being given is not always the best...regardless to if that person is Tom or you or any other member that I have a difference of opinion with (be it first hand or knowledge based)....I have never said that someone is purposely offering up information with the intent to harm a tortoise...I do offer up my opinion and offer up information that I know to be true, especially when only one tainted opinion/idea is being pressed hard on people..and that information is not in its entirely, complete.

In close, Yvonne, you and I have a couple of times had difference of opinion of this type of thread and its ugly evolution. I have had my posts fluffed, deleted, chopped up and completely removed in the past. Yet, to this day---there are two reasons I have the utmost respect for you, you are a true icon from the way back in regards to the care of tortoise--experience that can never be duplicated...also, you are always fair and that I respect you for as well. I will apologize here Yvonne if I have done wrong, especially by the guidelines of Joshs forum. @Yvonne G
 

leigti

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You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?
 

Zeko

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You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?

She posts in a Sulcata topic, trying to bash Tom's way of raising and giving horrible advice.

Then she comes here and tries to make it out as if Tom was giving Russian tortoise advice.

It honestly is pointless talking to her, so our best course of action is to ensure that we can follow up her misinformation with the correct info, and make sure to inform future readers just how little knowledge she has on the topic at hand in hopes they do not follow it.

In the end, it's all about the tortoises. We can only hope the Troll finds better things to do in life than try to cause harm to other people's tortoises, whether intentional or not.
 
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ascott

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You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste, Russian tortoises should never be exposed to constant cool/wet environment". I personally have not read anywhere that Tom said anything about keeping any tortoise in cool and wet environments, just to keep them in warm and wet environments. So is this where your philosophical differences lie?


Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber and heat elements shut down in the evening saying it is alright for the temps to drop into the high 60's)....and has gone on and said that they can tolerate cool wet environments and seem to thrive...now, I know that a tortoise can tolerate alot....but to promote it is another thing....this is where I remind in the tread that if you are going to host this species, please keep in mind that a closed chamber, wet cool environment is a recipe for an ailing tort and if someone does choose to use that set up to please be sure then to not let the day and night temps ever fall below 80 degrees---to which I have been attacked on a personal level and have been subject to lynchings....this, is erroneous advise to offer to someone who is new to tortoise care....deadly for the tortoise in the interim....I make no apologies for my position. Also, this is such a new type of method to force on captive tortoise...simply not enough "actual" research by qualified people done....qualified to me does not include a guy who has some tortoise in his yard....now, that same guy certainly can and should share what he has found...but never claim it to be "the way"....because it is not the cure all..and this is what I have repeated and will continue to...regardless of the handful of characters.

Philosophical difference, there is no philosophical dialogue that had ever taken place...so no. I also am going to say, I have no idea of what you are referring to when you make the remark/statement of;

You say something along the lines of, sorry but I don't know how to copy and paste

I am avoiding trying to interpret what your meaning is by this to me, please tell me what exactly you mean by your statement.
 

Tom

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Wow....I do not know how you can interpret me clearly stating the species I host as anything other than forthcoming (yes, I read the excuse you used about being on a mobile device, however--you were the one accusing me of something, so I would think you would have done some research before speaking, especially with all of this talk of proving yourself).....Rude and condescending? You absolutely and willingly read each and every word I type and cloak those with "rude and condescending"---I even pointed out to you that this was happening...again, the ears you heard with and not the intent/tone they were typed with.....there is nothing that I can do about your actions and your opinions.

Also, this is not the first thread in which you have had this exact practice with regards to me...this appears to be your manner --in my opinion.---see I clearly said, in my opinion---I site no other member, no book, no research paper.....but based entirely on you and your actions...some things are themselves the proof.

Finally, in regards to Tom; for most of the time I have been a member here on this forum..I took in and digested all that he posted. I have also shared in the past that I agree that humidity is essential for just about every living animal (just about)...the crossroad (opinion) in which I come to with regards to the information Tom shared is that I believe not every species should be housed in the high humidity/constant humidity/closed chamber set up. Tom clearly started out promoting this described set up for Sulcata and Leopard---great, but I am also a person that knows a blanket statement can be hazardous in the realm of life, including tortoise. There came a time when his advise began to consume certain species of tortoise that I know are negatively affected by this sulcata/leopard promotion....this is the point in which I have now been singled out as you have participated in...you see, I know better than to house a CDT in the same conditions he promotes for sulcata and leopard....I also know that russian tortoise should never be exposed to repeated cool/wet environments---as you will end up with a negative outcome. I know it. Now see, Tom only knows what he presumes to know of me...as you in the lynching mob have done as well...that is fine with me. I never came to this Forum in search of a playground group of friends. I initially came to this forum not because I have no knowledge of tortoise but rather because I has no direct knowledge of salivary gland failure in a California Desert Tortoise. That was it. You see, just because someone comes to this forum as a new member, does not in any ways mean they are new to tortoise. I am from a long background of family who have always had reptiles in their life. Not simply tortoise. I am a firm believer that each and every member here (new or old) is as important as the next...which would also include you. If it seems as though I do not reply to any post from Tom, it is because some time back he over stepped his bounds with me, in a personal nature--a personal attack on me due to my difference of opinion with his....in response to that, I simply utilized the forum option of marking a member as ignored. So, it would appear that there may be posts from Tom, based on your post I have quoted here, that again is trying to build himself up by trying to belittle yet another member here.....

I am not concerned with your opinion of me, I learned along time ago to only be concerned with the opinion of those that, personally matter to me. I am not concerned with the opinion of Tom in regards to me--he knows what he is doing. I also am not on this forum to try to win over anyone. I am here, to offer up to other people what I know, what I do and what I know from others that works in the care, custody and control of these forced captive beauties....I also will not allow a voice to go unspoken on behalf of CDTs and Russian Torts when the information being given is not always the best...regardless to if that person is Tom or you or any other member that I have a difference of opinion with (be it first hand or knowledge based)....I have never said that someone is purposely offering up information with the intent to harm a tortoise...I do offer up my opinion and offer up information that I know to be true, especially when only one tainted opinion/idea is being pressed hard on people..and that information is not in its entirely, complete.

In close, Yvonne, you and I have a couple of times had difference of opinion of this type of thread and its ugly evolution. I have had my posts fluffed, deleted, chopped up and completely removed in the past. Yet, to this day---there are two reasons I have the utmost respect for you, you are a true icon from the way back in regards to the care of tortoise--experience that can never be duplicated...also, you are always fair and that I respect you for as well. I will apologize here Yvonne if I have done wrong, especially by the guidelines of Joshs forum. @Yvonne G

No one on this forum is saying that "every species" should be housed in a high humidity, constant humidity, closed chamber.

How do you know what will happen with a russian in any set of conditions, since you have never had one of any age? What you are saying about russians is false. I know it is false because I have done what you say will have a "negative outcome", and there was only a positive outcome. We are talking dozens of times for me, and countless times for others around the world.

Further along those same lines, how many CDT hatchlings have you raised with humidity? None. I, on the other hand, have raised about a dozen now in the conditions you say will cause them harm, yet all of them survive and thrive and are far healthier than their siblings raised in the typical dry environments. You would know this too, if you had ever done it.

I launched NO personal attack on you. I did exactly what I'm doing now. I pointed out that #1. You are wrong about these assertions you are repeating above, and #2. You have nothing to base these assertions on because you have never done any of the things that you are making these incorrect assertions about.

We don't have a "difference of opinion". I have been researching and doing the very things we are discussing here for years, while you have never done any of it. Not once. That is not a difference of opinion. That is one person who knows what they are talking about from lots of first hand experience with many species and ages over many years, and one person who knows nothing and has never done any of this, and has no basis at all for forming an opinion one way or the other, having a pointless discussion.

My information is "tainted"? "Incomplete"? What is tainted about it? Thousands of people are successfully using this information all over the entire planet. My results have been repeated with literally thousands of tortoise of many species, and the results are the exact opposite of what you claim. Tainted? Now that is an insult. I'm not offended though, because it is an entirely baseless accusation with not even a hint of factual information or experience to back it up.
 

leigti

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Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber and heat elements shut down in the evening saying it is alright for the temps to drop into the high 60's)....and has gone on and said that they can tolerate cool wet environments and seem to thrive...now, I know that a tortoise can tolerate alot....but to promote it is another thing....this is where I remind in the tread that if you are going to host this species, please keep in mind that a closed chamber, wet cool environment is a recipe for an ailing tort and if someone does choose to use that set up to please be sure then to not let the day and night temps ever fall below 80 degrees---to which I have been attacked on a personal level and have been subject to lynchings....this, is erroneous advise to offer to someone who is new to tortoise care....deadly for the tortoise in the interim....I make no apologies for my position. Also, this is such a new type of method to force on captive tortoise...simply not enough "actual" research by qualified people done....qualified to me does not include a guy who has some tortoise in his yard....now, that same guy certainly can and should share what he has found...but never claim it to be "the way"....because it is not the cure all..and this is what I have repeated and will continue to...regardless of the handful of characters.

Philosophical difference, there is no philosophical dialogue that had ever taken place...so no. I also am going to say, I have no idea of what you are referring to when you make the remark/statement of;



I am avoiding trying to interpret what your meaning is by this to me, please tell me what exactly you mean by your statement.
In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.
 

Zeko

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In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.

She picks and chooses part of what people say and then twists the rest.

Every post I've ever read of Tom's follows the lines of humidity + proper temps, day and night is required. Usually by using a CHE on a thermostat.

Not once has he said "wet and cold is good".
 
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