Question: Should we strive to give our tortoises "optimal" conditions all the time, or should we purposefully inflict some of the hardships of the wild upon them? Somewhere in between maybe?
The natural range of every species experiences a wide variety of temperature and weather extremes. Storms, seasons, and just the normal day to day weather variation. Obviously wild tortoises have been adapting to deal with these elements for a very long time and are largely successful (as a species) at persevering. But can we argue that some days in the wild feature "optimal" conditions for health and growth, while other days offer conditions that are in some extreme cases barely survivable? I think we can. Clearly some days are "better" for the tortoise than others, but are the "bad" days necessary?
We've had the hibernation debate her many times. Not looking to fan those flames again, but it illustrates an example of what I'm talking about. It gets cold, weather is unfavorable for enough days in a row and the days begin to shorten, and our temperate species duck underground to avoid the cold of the coming winter. Seems like a pretty good survival system, but would you call those cold winter days "optimal" tortoise conditions? Is there some harm to the tortoise if our captive days stay warm, long and sunny? Is there a downside to prolonged "good" days for some species? For any species?
How about a sulcata? They have a wet season with lots of puddles and marshes to drink from, green food growing everywhere, and high humidity. Obviously they eat a lot and grow a lot during these times and I would consider those conditions "optimal". This lasts for 3-4 months and then the hot desiccating dry season sets in. The tortoises stay in their underground burrows during this time to avoid the extreme heat and dryness. I would refer to these conditions as less than optimal. Now obviously the tortoises do just fine out there with all the factors that go along with wild living, but do they "NEED" us to simulate these harsh conditions for them on purpose in captivity? Is it a bad thing for captive hatchlings to have all good days and few or no "bad" ones? Is this different for adults vs. hatchlings? Do those among us who know the most about wild habitats really know enough to successfully simulate this? How many bad days a week should they have and why? Or maybe we don't break it down by days, but instead we have "bad" months at certain times of the year, and "good" months at others.
To use leopard tortoises as an example: During the rainy seasons it is warm and humid. Good conditions for carapace growth. When its rainy there is an abundance of food, and so the resultant tortoise growth happens in good conditions. In drier times there is less food, so less growth during unfavorable tortoise growing conditions. Should we be doing annual wet and dry seasons for them, with an abundance of food during the humid times and a lack of food during the dry times?
How much of the wild should we attempt to simulate? Or maybe WHICH elements of the wild should we be attempting to simulate, and which elements should we protect our tortoises from? Another example: I've seen a study, and heard by word of mouth, that a common food element for wild leopard tortoises if mammal feces. Mostly ungulates, but also carnivores when the opportunity presents itself. I have access to as much African ungulate and lion or hyena feces as I want, but I am pretty comfortable NOT simulating this aspect of the wild. Likewise, sulcata are known to eat carrion when they happen to find it. Should I toss the occasional dead animal in for my tortoises to eat? Am I doing them a disservice if I don't?
I think many of the arguments here on TFO boil down to these elements. I am curious as to where people fall on this spectrum and why. For me personally that pendulum has swung both ways. I started out trying to offer my tortoises the best of everything, according to my definition of "best" at the time. As time went on I moved to more "extreme" methods in an attempt to follow "expert" advice and grow a smooth sulcata using more "natural" methods. I skipped feeding days, fed lightly, and eliminated grocery store greens, and had them outside in the sun all day every day, weather permitting, but they still pyramided. This taught me that I was still missing some element of whatever happens in the wild for them, since the wild ones don't pyramid like our captives. My tortoises had some pretty hungry days, but never seemed sick or unhealthy in any way. They survived these days, but were these days "good" for them? It took me a few years and a lot of help, but I figured out the missing element was water. Nowadays, I offer babies all good days. I simulate what my current view of what is "natural" for hatchlings based on what I have learned about the wild and what I have observed with all of my experiments. I see no benefit to depriving tropical species of the best conditions I can offer. Would a series of good days or weeks or months in the wild be "bad" for a wild tortoise? I think not. Do they "NEED" some bad days for health reasons? Not in my experience.
How do you decide WHICH elements of the wild to try to duplicate and which elements to skip?
This turned out to be a multitude of questions, but I'd love to hear opinions on this one way, or the other.
The natural range of every species experiences a wide variety of temperature and weather extremes. Storms, seasons, and just the normal day to day weather variation. Obviously wild tortoises have been adapting to deal with these elements for a very long time and are largely successful (as a species) at persevering. But can we argue that some days in the wild feature "optimal" conditions for health and growth, while other days offer conditions that are in some extreme cases barely survivable? I think we can. Clearly some days are "better" for the tortoise than others, but are the "bad" days necessary?
We've had the hibernation debate her many times. Not looking to fan those flames again, but it illustrates an example of what I'm talking about. It gets cold, weather is unfavorable for enough days in a row and the days begin to shorten, and our temperate species duck underground to avoid the cold of the coming winter. Seems like a pretty good survival system, but would you call those cold winter days "optimal" tortoise conditions? Is there some harm to the tortoise if our captive days stay warm, long and sunny? Is there a downside to prolonged "good" days for some species? For any species?
How about a sulcata? They have a wet season with lots of puddles and marshes to drink from, green food growing everywhere, and high humidity. Obviously they eat a lot and grow a lot during these times and I would consider those conditions "optimal". This lasts for 3-4 months and then the hot desiccating dry season sets in. The tortoises stay in their underground burrows during this time to avoid the extreme heat and dryness. I would refer to these conditions as less than optimal. Now obviously the tortoises do just fine out there with all the factors that go along with wild living, but do they "NEED" us to simulate these harsh conditions for them on purpose in captivity? Is it a bad thing for captive hatchlings to have all good days and few or no "bad" ones? Is this different for adults vs. hatchlings? Do those among us who know the most about wild habitats really know enough to successfully simulate this? How many bad days a week should they have and why? Or maybe we don't break it down by days, but instead we have "bad" months at certain times of the year, and "good" months at others.
To use leopard tortoises as an example: During the rainy seasons it is warm and humid. Good conditions for carapace growth. When its rainy there is an abundance of food, and so the resultant tortoise growth happens in good conditions. In drier times there is less food, so less growth during unfavorable tortoise growing conditions. Should we be doing annual wet and dry seasons for them, with an abundance of food during the humid times and a lack of food during the dry times?
How much of the wild should we attempt to simulate? Or maybe WHICH elements of the wild should we be attempting to simulate, and which elements should we protect our tortoises from? Another example: I've seen a study, and heard by word of mouth, that a common food element for wild leopard tortoises if mammal feces. Mostly ungulates, but also carnivores when the opportunity presents itself. I have access to as much African ungulate and lion or hyena feces as I want, but I am pretty comfortable NOT simulating this aspect of the wild. Likewise, sulcata are known to eat carrion when they happen to find it. Should I toss the occasional dead animal in for my tortoises to eat? Am I doing them a disservice if I don't?
I think many of the arguments here on TFO boil down to these elements. I am curious as to where people fall on this spectrum and why. For me personally that pendulum has swung both ways. I started out trying to offer my tortoises the best of everything, according to my definition of "best" at the time. As time went on I moved to more "extreme" methods in an attempt to follow "expert" advice and grow a smooth sulcata using more "natural" methods. I skipped feeding days, fed lightly, and eliminated grocery store greens, and had them outside in the sun all day every day, weather permitting, but they still pyramided. This taught me that I was still missing some element of whatever happens in the wild for them, since the wild ones don't pyramid like our captives. My tortoises had some pretty hungry days, but never seemed sick or unhealthy in any way. They survived these days, but were these days "good" for them? It took me a few years and a lot of help, but I figured out the missing element was water. Nowadays, I offer babies all good days. I simulate what my current view of what is "natural" for hatchlings based on what I have learned about the wild and what I have observed with all of my experiments. I see no benefit to depriving tropical species of the best conditions I can offer. Would a series of good days or weeks or months in the wild be "bad" for a wild tortoise? I think not. Do they "NEED" some bad days for health reasons? Not in my experience.
How do you decide WHICH elements of the wild to try to duplicate and which elements to skip?
This turned out to be a multitude of questions, but I'd love to hear opinions on this one way, or the other.
. I love that this thread has noodled its way from your dome....
