Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping

[DeanS]

Sometimes, mine have to work pretty hard to find food! It's based on the principle of whether or not they want to cross from one end of the yard to the other in order to eat. Oh wait! The entire yard is a banquet. So I guess they can eat whenever they want to! Due to the fact that they all follow the dogs around...Uh-hum...I have cut the Mazuri down to twice a week...since their protein intake is quite satiated! Chew on that for awhile!

 

[Yvonne G]

Yuck, Dean. That's satisfies my yuck factor! I have a fairly new 38lb sulcata rescue in my backyard. I pick up the dog poop almost as fast as she deposits it, however sometimes she wants out during the night, and I may miss one until later in the morning. I have seen smeared dog poops in the back yard, and can only assume my new little rescue has acquired a taste for the yuck factor. My dog eats quite well, and she is NOT on heart worm medication, so besides yuck, it's all good.

 

[T33's Torts]

Re: RE: Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping

Yuck, Dean. That's satisfies my yuck factor! I have a fairly new 38lb sulcata rescue in my backyard. I pick up the dog poop almost as fast as she deposits it, however sometimes she wants out during the night, and I may miss one until later in the morning. I have seen smeared dog poops in the back yard, and can only assume my new little rescue has acquired a taste for the yuck factor. My dog eats quite well, and she is NOT on heart worm medication, so besides yuck, it's all good.

New rescue? Sounds cool.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

So I'm going back to Tom's OP, and aside from many things that have become divergent on "philosophy", I am restating his question so it bears better in my mind and then answering it with what I hope will be content to consider in the vein of that OP.

"Optimal" might be part of a continuum from one extreme to another, so let's define those extremes.

One extreme might be a tortoise that hatches during a period when that cohort of hatchlings in that population will have but one survivor to reproductive age. Between an in-abundance of food and least endurable climate, (no predators or disease) one tortoise survives, takes maybe 1/3 longer to reach reproductive size (age for tortoises is less relevant than size). What do we have at the end? A tortoise with every adaptive advantage called into use, the one that will carry a population forward during the worst possible suite of conditions for that species in that population in that space and time. Selection at it's harshest, but still do-able, there are several cohorts.

At the other end of the spectrum, maybe we have a tortoise in a NASA space station hooked up into some type of habitat that reads stress and hunger, reproductive want, etc. and provides on an as needed basis. All physical and chemical needs met as the animals can use them, no minimum, everything is maximum, and balanced. For the most part you still end up with only the same result. In this case the individual tortoise's needs were met on demand.

The difference between these two tortoises is not a wizened creature that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring, those genes that worked in the particular condition for the individual. We still do have wild animals here, dog examples do not work. Wolf examples would, yeah?

One collection of individuals (a cohort) is always steering (offering for selection) the next collection.

Then we have two other lesser extremes in our range of husbandry.

One, A suitable climate and large outdoor pens, with predator exclusion. large enough we never have to offer extra food, maybe we keep a basin of freshwater available and not much else. We have a pet for the fun of observation pretty much as we wish, with very little "husbandry" involved. If we have a few in the enclosure we may even find neonates or hatchlings from in the ground nests.

The other range here is someone living in an climate not tortoise friendly but a few weeks a year, not really enough to be considered a significant or valuable exposure to sun, open air etc. for the animal, so little in fact "why bother" becomes a rational POV.

So now lets 'middle of the road' the scenario.

How much and what kinds of 'as found in nature' artifacts of existence do we make available?

Well I think we can rule out predators and disease without much thought, but that is part of a 'natural existence' reality.

We have climate, but what is climate? The source of certain physical and chemical needs, as based on the cohorts of past individuals. When looking at longer than the very last cohort, maybe the last thousand cohorts, we see that our individual tortoise is an amalgam of excellent 'results' based on what is available in that habitat. Maybe some years
with 300 'growing' days, some years with a minimal 60 'growing' days.

Which is better is getting at the heart of the philosophical question.

Food is another major issue. Maybe some disease wipes out some hoof stock food competitors and that lasts as an effect for 20 years, which is followed by a rebound in those hoof stock competitors and food is scarce. The tortoises survive either way and have not been in danger of die out, but which is better?

In captivity climate is temp, water, day/night, light qualities, air circulation for the animals itself.

Food is affected by climate, but lets look at it separately. If there was a perfect single food item for all stages and of life and nutrient needs, that would make it simple. There is not, and this is a vigorously debated topic, maybe table it for right now.

Then there is the physical habitat, rocky, sandy, grassland, forest, etc.

These things are as much a factor that shaped the tortoise over time as they are for a tortoise selecting them as individual animals in real time (each individual's life).

I think these are the big considerations.

I believe that as long as the result of your husbandry is a tortoise that looks wild type, then you are doing great (excluding albinos and the like). A ten year ten inch tortoise is no better/worse than a 20 year ten inch tortoise, both would happen in a trouble free (no predators or disease) wild life.

I like husbanding animals. I like to give them the optimal that they would take from the wild as is available, to me to provide.

Different life stages have somewhat different needs and optimality. I want the tortoises to, as best I can tell, thrive. Putting food around the enclosure is behavioral enrichment. I think tortoises display 'play' behavior' and 'problem solving'.

I think tortoises do look for clues about there environment based on what other animals are doing, like cattle egrets following buffalo to get the insects - stirred up. The 'food god' thing for tortoises.

This is how I have come to think of Tom's OP, something debated to death among Zookeepers and wildlife biologists working to mitigate human alterations to environments. Two sides to the same coin.

I am also motivated by sharing the animals as sold or gifts. I really really don't like hearing about how an animal I had as a neonate - dies because it was not a "doer" or because as an individual it could not endure the very small hardship of a new enclosure. In this case size matters. So I like to grow them larger soon, so they they can better endure these hardships in captivity.

This echoes something in the wild. Bigger females lay bigger eggs that hatch out bigger neonates that can endure the first part of their life better. So in a way, we are adopting a natural selection process for our captive animals. By further eliminating predators and disease we are going the captive raising one step better. We end up amping up what happens in the wild, not really replacing it.

When we get freakish looking animals from poor, neglectful, or ignorant (did not know as individuals or as a collective of husbandry knowledge), then that is when we have failed.

I think the ideal is wild type looking (morphology, not color pattern) and full life. Not all tortoises can or do live long lives in the wild.

There are no doubt accumulative effects from multiple generations in captivity, but that is domestication. so maybe that can not really been valued as good or bad?

A 'Cohort' is all the individuals in one reproductive year. Some definitions carry this to the number that make it to reproductive age from a specific past year.

 

[ascott]

The difference between these two tortoises is not a wizened creature that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring,

As, what I read here, a difference of "core" beliefs, I believe you would exactly have a wise creature fully part of the act in passing its superior genes on in the long line of offspring....these are things "I believe" are imprinted within that line....so, this difference in beliefs makes our opinions different straight out the door...there are absolutely traits that are a lingering part of a particular line....again, in my opinion.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The difference between these two tortoises is not a wizened creature that can do anything more but pass its genes onto it's offspring,

As, what I read here, a difference of "core" beliefs, I believe you would exactly have a wise creature fully part of the act in passing its superior genes on in the long line of offspring....these are things "I believe" are imprinted within that line....so, this difference in beliefs makes our opinions different straight out the door...there are absolutely traits that are a lingering part of a particular line....again, in my opinion.

Wizened from it's own life is what biologist call lamarckian evolution, if that s what you mean. That is not what I mean. Like when you cut off a mouse tail, that mouse's offspring grow sans tail. I somehow don't think that's what I said, or what you are responding to, maybe?

The traits that one animal is born with, can be passed onto offspring, if that first survived the trials of it's life to a reproductive age, and then reproduced. The adult's actual survival is a challenge between what it is, and what the environment is during it's life. If the what it is, does well in that environment, then those traits are "good" and pass along.

Survival is a stochastic thing, even for people. Really healthy animals with good traits, may not survive often.

 

[Benjamin]

Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?

 

[argus333]

ya unless u own massive land in Africa and are keeping leopards or spur thighs u are inflicting. zoos are just as guilty.

 

[peasinapod]

Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?

Unless you are part of a repopulation/conservation program or something similiar, it's just because we're selfish.

IMO that's why it is our obligation to look after them properly.

 

[diamondbp]

I think the answer to this question may be relative to the tortoises owner.

I look at the extremes the tortoise may experience while in my care based off of my ability to provide/house/feed/etc. long term. For instance, I know I can't dedicate the time that a single person with no job could to my tortoises. Nor could I spend endless amounts of money building elaborate enclosures for them. So I don't try to "pamper" my tortoises like some may simply because I don't want them to become accustomed to a prestine ideal lifestyle that I know I can't provide that every single day. I don't think its wrong to pamper them if you know that you will be able to continue doing so over the course of their life.

I think the main reason tortoises get sick or die is not from lack of food/water available, but because of the stresses of moving to new locations and experiencing very different situations than what they previously had grown in.

I aim for someplace in the middle of the extremes. They will always have enough food and water available but may experience days where the variety and amount is better than other days. So they may feel "hunger" at times but I'm sure that happens plenty in the wild and my tortoises never experience it for long. I also do soaks as often as I can, but I'm bound to miss a day or two a week because of how unpredictable my life can be between my family and job obligations. My tortoises grow out nicely and are healthy, but I often see pictures of other people's tortoises that grow so much faster because of how "ideal" their lifestyle is compared to mine. I'm sure the way I raise my tortoises far succeeds the typical tortoises life but it isn't what I would call ideal. I think it's better than what a wild leopard would experience and that my tortoises will live long happy healthy lives.

So in short, I believe if you know you can provide ideal situations for your tortoise long term then do so. But if you know you simply can't provide optimal conditions 24/7 - 365 then just do the best you can for your tortoise and know that it will still live a good life.

The problem is the people that get in over their heads and know they can't provide for their tortoises at all, yet buy the tortoise anyways. There are plenty of people that simply "want" a certain tortoise but never question whether or not the tortoise would "want" to live with them lol.

I want my tortoises in my life, and I think if they could speak they would say that they would "want" to stay with me too lol. It's a nice thought at least

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Interesting thread, thanks. What has crossed my mind in reading all is..Why are we keeping these animals in the first place?

for the same reason I get involved with any relationship, it fills a need I have. As for other humans they come and go as I fill their needs.

With pets, it's more one sided, but I implement due diligence to create what balance I can.

I'd much rather live where I can see tortoises doing what they do without any husbandry.