Philosophical Differences In Tortoise Keeping

[Kapidolo Farms]

This is good, I know it as 'behavioral enrichment'. It is my opinion this is an optimality.

I think for me personally, it really depends on how much of a struggle it is. It doesn't have to be black or white-- struggle or no struggle. The way I try to think of it is, "how does this benefit my tortoise?"

For example, come feeding time, I do not like placing all my tort's food in one place. I put it in random areas around the enclosure, I guess "simulating" his natural environment in that he has to search for food. How do I believe this benefits my tortoise? Because it's stimulating for him. He has a reason to roam his enclosure to find food, and normally by the end of it all he's tired and seems content.

This is just one example. I could see how some people use idea in order to go either direction in philosophy when it comes to caring for their tortoise. I think in the end, everyone has their own journey to figure out what is best for them and their tortoise. As hikers on the AT say "hike your own hike." As long as the tortoises are healthy, grow as smoothly as possible, and live a long time, that's what's important. The exact means, while helpful for new tort owners like myself, means much less if an experienced owner's torts are already living a long and active life in a relatively adequate environment.

---

What about the CDT's in the part of the range that don't hibernate?

I am so eager to see what you are referring to in this statement...I am suspect, but more curious....please do tell :shy:

http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/...rt-tortoise-is-actually-two-distinct-species/

This link is the short answer. Range maps and the most recent change in taxonomy are off topic things in this thread about keeper philosophies.

I have spoken to only one field person who went to the southern limit. There they are more wet/dry season behaviors than hot/cool for these guys. But active year round.

 

[ascott]

http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/06/ne...t-species/


I have scoured every word of this link thinking that I have missed some positive indicator that brumation does NOT occur at all...I do not see any facts saying this....

Also, the torts being cited are affixed with an unnatural device which does not, in my opinion, present true subjects for natural observation....

This "new" species has indeed likely been around as long as the others---just no one "put their reading glasses" on to ever see the subtle differences....after all, each of the areas offer different housing options but does not change the critter living there....only their design...

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm not sure because I can't read his mind, but I THINK he was showing you the range map, and then to tell you that he had personal contact with someone who had visited the furthest point south and was told the tortoises in that range were active year round.

 

[TommyZ]

This is very interesting. I have been wondering what is best. I find that setting up an enclosure with obstacles, timed lighting and gradient heat is a good way to simulate conditions in the wild. The one part that strikes me as difficult is how to actually simulate hardship.

The only way I can see to simulate a hardship would be to hold back things such as food water or warmth. The part that gets me there is that with holding food or water or warmth in my opinion is borderline abuse.

Regardless of what we all say these are not wild tortoises. My Cherie heads will never be walking around their entire range in Brazil. My northern will never set foot on the ground in a Bolivian forest. Therefore having a captive tort inside, that tort will never ever in the rest of its life be a wild animal. It is in my opinion that the animal should be given optimal conditions.

As the old saying goes: we are forever responsible for that which we tame. (try telling my Mrs that, and youll see hardship, lol)


TZ

 

[gieseygirly]

Tom,
Love this post. I wasn't able to read it all because I am at work but I did want to comment.

I've very often thought how we go to extremes trying to make our little (or large) fellas as happy and simulate the most natural environment possible for them. But at the same time, when my leopard or my Russian needs yet another item for either their self or their enclosure, I think to myself, "But they don't have this all the time in the wild. What do they do in the wild?"

My opinion: We go to these great measures caring for our torts because we just simply love them and to me, my torts are just like my daughter. I talk to them, I care for them, I interact with them, and I want to provide the best life possible for them, just as I do my own child. I simply enjoy doing things for them, just as do for my husband and daughter. I know they are reptiles and I may sounds silly, but I can't help it. It's how I feel - these torts are my family and I love them to pieces! Therefore, I would never simulate a drought or flood or anything like that. It would just bother me too much, even though I know these creatures endure such things in the wild.

I can't wait to follow up with this post after work! Merry Christmas, Tom!

 

[Jacqui]

I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care.

I love my children too, but I also let them fall when they were learning to walk, to skate, and to ride a bike. I let them try things I knew they would probably fail at, relationships I felt would not work, and so many other things were I knew the outcome would not always be rosy, but felt they need to learn those things for themselves. To me, that was part of giving the best to my child.

 

[Tom]

I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care.

I love my children too, but I also let them fall when they were learning to walk, to skate, and to ride a bike. I let them try things I knew they would probably fail at, relationships I felt would not work, and so many other things were I knew the outcome would not always be rosy, but felt they need to learn those things for themselves. To me, that was part of giving the best to my child.

I see what you are saying here J. To relate it to tortoises: I would let one of mine walk off of a short drop off to let him/her learn, but in my mind allowing them to learn from their mistakes, or spreading food around the enclosure, is not any sort of induced hardship. Skipping food three days a week, or feeding very lightly for months at a time during hot weather to simulate a dry season, is a different story. Not a story I'd wish to inflict upon my tortoises. I tried the light feeding and skipping days in the past. It still did not produce the results I was looking for. I'd never do that again.

 

[DeanS]

I think perhaps a clearing of the definitions here would be a good thing. Seems so many of you think non optimal are "mean" things, huge things and long term. Things like drought or flood are not what I would say fall into my thinking of non optimal care.

I love my children too, but I also let them fall when they were learning to walk, to skate, and to ride a bike. I let them try things I knew they would probably fail at, relationships I felt would not work, and so many other things were I knew the outcome would not always be rosy, but felt they need to learn those things for themselves. To me, that was part of giving the best to my child.

I see what you are saying here J. To relate it to tortoises: I would let one of mine walk off of a short drop off to let him/her learn, but in my mind allowing them to learn from their mistakes, or spreading food around the enclosure, is not any sort of induced hardship. Skipping food three days a week, or feeding very lightly for months at a time during hot weather to simulate a dry season, is a different story. Not a story I'd wish to inflict upon my tortoises. I tried the light feeding and skipping days in the past. It still did not produce the results I was looking for. I'd never do that again.

 

[Jacqui]

I see what you are saying here J. To relate it to tortoises: I would let one of mine walk off of a short drop off to let him/her learn, but in my mind allowing them to learn from their mistakes, or spreading food around the enclosure, is not any sort of induced hardship. Skipping food three days a week, or feeding very lightly for months at a time during hot weather to simulate a dry season, is a different story. Not a story I'd wish to inflict upon my tortoises. I tried the light feeding and skipping days in the past. It still did not produce the results I was looking for. I'd never do that again.

Months at a time, no. A meal a week I can see it being skipped or small, depending on how they were fed the rest of the week. I much prefer them to decide what they want to eat and how much (grazing in a heavily varied planted enclosure). I could see (depending on species and where you live) not watering the enclosure as much as you might say a grass yard (if your one of those who wants a pretty yard that's weed free). That way you would get the drier, tougher type weeds to be fed then in a well watered one.

 

[Tom]

Months at a time, no. A meal a week I can see it being skipped or small, depending on how they were fed the rest of the week. I much prefer them to decide what they want to eat and how much (grazing in a heavily varied planted enclosure). I could see (depending on species and where you live) not watering the enclosure as much as you might say a grass yard (if your one of those who wants a pretty yard that's weed free). That way you would get the drier, tougher type weeds to be fed then in a well watered one.

Okay, so skipping food once a week is okay with you. What about twice a week or three times a week? I'm mainly asking about an indoor tortoise, since the outdoor ones can find food and eat on their own in most cases.

I prefer to let them graze as much as they want too. I try to do that here whenever the weeds allow.

 

[Jacqui]

Okay, so skipping food once a week is okay with you. What about twice a week or three times a week? I'm mainly asking about an indoor tortoise, since the outdoor ones can find food and eat on their own in most cases.

No, I would not withhold food more then once a week myself. I don't do that with any animal including myself.

 

[Tom]

No, I would not withhold food more then once a week myself. I don't do that with any animal including myself.

Thank you for the tortoise conversation. That was sort of the point of this thread to see where various people stood on these issues. I as curious about what you'd have to say when I wrote this too.

 

[ascott]

If this were a poll, I would not be checking the "optimal conditions all the time" box.

I also like the more natural slower growth and think it may be healthier for them in the long run,

Well said.

 

[Tom]

If this were a poll, I would not be checking the "optimal conditions all the time" box.

I also like the more natural slower growth and think it may be healthier for them in the long run,

Well said.

What is it that you think causes them to grow slower in the wild?

 

[ascott]

What is it that you think causes them to grow slower in the wild?

Tom,

I don't know that they necessarily grow slower(I think they are growing correctly not slowly ) due to being in the wild...but moreover because of the weather....some seasons provide the optimal conditions for growth ---based on the rainfall, if there are lush food growths or not...you know, the prime reason there is no way to be able to accurately tell the age of a wild tort

I also believe that the wild allows their emotional (for lack of a better descriptive) being to be fulfilled with countless space to roam, search, stroll, seek out, run across, fight for, fight over--get into scuffles/or frisky opportunities --the ability to make choices based on the differences offered up in the day---a day in the wild.

I could not say what the exact reasons are that truly buffer a perfect set up for a healthy tort....but I have visited areas with beautiful torts strolling in the wild---and the words perfect, fantastic and amazing always come to mind....

---

Also, I have noticed that sometimes the torts (both CDT and the Redfoot here) will be less eager to mad dash for goodies every so often---and when I started to pay attention to this I have decided that if they don't show natural interest/curiosity when they see food being presented then I will only leave a bit and go away...then come back and if the offerings have only be mulled over and not consumed then I will not offer another food offering for a full day---they get the water every day (because it makes me feel good, even if they don't touch it) and any spot cleaning takes place for any indoors....but just no food, on those days they display a lackluster I notice they could care less about the food so why force it? Then when the full day has passed I will make my rounds as usual....there have been times that it has happened a few days in a row (usually when it is heavy clouding and monsoon type weather) and I will do it each day of lackluster food interest....then it is like a switch has been flipped and they will spot be from across the yard and they are booking along their enclosure perimeter stomping energetic---they will pounce the food and eat with awesome vigor---then will be this way for periods of time and then the disinterest will occur again.....so, while I don't decide what times to or not to offer food----I will take ques from them (when I am able to pick up on those signals) and try to behave accordingly....and a side note; the CDTs are the ones who do this moreover than the Redfoot Torts...but they do it as well, just on a smaller scale...if that make sense?

 

[Jacqui]

I think "optimal" can be taken many ways and some to me are way too far out there. Examples to me, would be keeping temperatures always at the same temperature, daily soaks that may serve to push food through at a faster rate then nature made them to handle and continuing this at all stages of life, feeding always only the perfect food as far as food value (so lacking the variety of food values, the variety of toughness/amount of fiber, lacking changing quality, quantity, food type with the seasons. Food normally being something actually too soft for what their beaks were meant to be used on. Always cutting the food up into bite size pieces and if using more then one type of food item, mixing them up. Food is served at the same place and time each day and never is a day missed or older dried out food left for them to eat. Having UVB lighting on for the same length of time and UVB output strength plus coming on and off at the same time each day. Enclosures that have only one substrate, nothing to climb over, no real plants, nothing that changes from one day to the next. A speck of dirt appears on the tortoise and it's bath time.

If the tortoise is outside and the temperature varies above or below that mark they think is ideal, in come the tortoise. Cloudy day? Nope can't be out. Rain falling or ground wet and muddy, of course the tortoise is inside.

Those are just some examples where I think folks go over board with the "optimal" thinking. Where one or three would be fine, but they often do all of these things. I guess what I am saying is there are extremes to both sides, where I would rather see the middle ground being used. It should not be a race to see who can grow the biggest tortoise the fastest, as it appears it has become with some. I like seeing tortoises living and growing as close to what nature intended them to do and to be.

---

I don't know that they necessarily grow slower(I think they are growing correctly not slowly ) due to being in the wild...but moreover because of the weather....some seasons provide the optimal conditions for growth ---based on the rainfall, if there are lush food growths or not...you know, the prime reason there is no way to be able to accurately tell the age of a wild tort

I also believe that the wild allows their emotional (for lack of a better descriptive) being to be fulfilled with countless space to roam, search, stroll, seek out, run across, fight for, fight over--get into scuffles/or frisky opportunities --the ability to make choices based on the differences offered up in the day---a day in the wild.

I could not say what the exact reasons are that truly buffer a perfect set up for a healthy tort....but I have visited areas with beautiful torts strolling in the wild---and the words perfect, fantastic and amazing always come to mind....

---

Also, I have noticed that sometimes the torts (both CDT and the Redfoot here) will be less eager to mad dash for goodies every so often---and when I started to pay attention to this I have decided that if they don't show natural interest/curiosity when they see food being presented then I will only leave a bit and go away...then come back and if the offerings have only be mulled over and not consumed then I will not offer another food offering for a full day---they get the water every day (because it makes me feel good, even if they don't touch it) and any spot cleaning takes place for any indoors....but just no food, on those days they display a lackluster I notice they could care less about the food so why force it? Then when the full day has passed I will make my rounds as usual....there have been times that it has happened a few days in a row (usually when it is heavy clouding and monsoon type weather) and I will do it each day of lackluster food interest....then it is like a switch has been flipped and they will spot be from across the yard and they are booking along their enclosure perimeter stomping energetic---they will pounce the food and eat with awesome vigor---then will be this way for periods of time and then the disinterest will occur again.....so, while I don't decide what times to or not to offer food----I will take ques from them (when I am able to pick up on those signals) and try to behave accordingly....and a side note; the CDTs are the ones who do this moreover than the Redfoot Torts...but they do it as well, just on a smaller scale...if that make sense?

---

This is so well written and I agree with everything you had to say.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'm not sure because I can't read his mind, but I THINK he was showing you the range map, and then to tell you that he had personal contact with someone who had visited the furthest point south and was told the tortoises in that range were active year round.

So, I love you, and appreciate your mind. You are the perfect turtle wife.

 

[Yvonne G]

***digging her right toe into the ground, Yvonne dips her head to her shoulder, blushing***

 

[Tom]

***Yvonne dips her head to her shoulder, blushing***

Now THAT, I cannot picture!

 

[Yvonne G]

Most of my tortoises, except the babies in the tort tables*, have to work pretty hard for their food. They have to make do with whatever is growing in their yards, and that's pretty sparse in the winter time. The Manouria have to eat the fallen mulberry leaves, and they DO get pretty tired of that same food item day after day. So I'll occasionally offer them some grocery store fruits, veggies and greens.

*Once they're big enough to live in the outdoor yard, I wean them off being fed by me every day, and they have to forage.

I weigh and measure every tortoise at least once a year. For example, the last time I weighed the leopard tortoises they all (except the SA leopards) weighed less than last year's weight. So I'm feeding them this winter instead of making them forage. Their yard is pretty barren, as they have eaten the grass down to the nubs. And I'm re-configuring the pens to give them a bit more grass space.