Please help me (tortoise subdued, poor appetite)

indy&squirt

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Hello,
I am desperate for some help & advice, This is my first post sorry if it's in the wrong area.

I have 2 Testudo graeca Spur thighed Tortoises both around 4 years old named Indy & Squirt, both females.

Recently in the last 2 months Indy who use to be very active climbing moving around eating lots generally very inquisitive, Has now become very subdued does not want to eat hardly anything, and will sleep 99% of the day which is very unlike her.
She also doesn't seem to be pooing much if at all but assumed that was because she wasn't eating but could be something else... She is however weeing.
We were only Bathing them once a month however realized this wasn't enough so have stepped this up to both being bathed once every 2 days.

I thought at first maybe the winter months had just slowed her down a little however she still isn't being herself and I am getting really worried about her.
Taken her to the vets and they recommended we deworm her in the hope this would clear her out a bit, which we haven't done before but are happy to do if people think that's going to help ?
The vet also thought Indy was underweight and was worried she would become anorexic.
We also started to bathe her in Reptoboost in the hope this would give her a pick me but no real luck.

Squirt who also lives with indy is fine up to around eating plenty generally very happy no signs of change with her.

Any help would be much appreciated!
I have put lots of info regarding the Tortoise below.


Tortoise INFO.
Breed:
Spur thighed Greek Tortiose.
Gender: Females
Diet: I try to feed them a very mixed diet as much as possible, they get Weeds, Mixed bags of Salad leafs, Dried flowers ( Made for tortoise) , Complete tortoise diet food balls, Plus Vegetables and Fruit on occasion.
Diet has been the same since birth.
Supplements: All food is regularly sprinkled with both calcium dust and nutrobal.
Hibernation: This is something I have completely failed on, Genuinely have been too worried to put them into hibernation so far but it is something I plan to do.
Enclosure: I have hand-made all my enclosures you can see photos below, The Tortoise table has Basking lights, UV Lamp, and Multiple ceramic heat lamps all controlled by sensors.
The temp range during the day is 25C to 30C and at night around 20C
They have an outdoor area that can be accessed during the day and on hot summer days, I put them in the garden to play.
Weight: I never use them Weigh them again another mistake but now am regularly am.
Indy 1807G
Squirt 1839G
Size by undershell plastron
Indy 175mm
Squirt 190mm

tort done.jpg




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wellington

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Get them separated into their own enclosure or get a bigger one built. Tortoises should not live in pairs and you might be seeing the result of it.
Worming will not clean her out of poop. One should only worm if they have worms. If your vet is suggesting to worm her and there are no worms in a stool sample you would have to bring in then you need to find a new vet.
Soak her in your tub with warm water and leave her for about an hour. However, if she's not eating she's not going to have anything to poop.
 

Tom

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Hello,
I am desperate for some help & advice, This is my first post sorry if it's in the wrong area.

I have 2 Testudo graeca Spur thighed Tortoises both around 4 years old named Indy & Squirt, both females.

Recently in the last 2 months Indy who use to be very active climbing moving around eating lots generally very inquisitive, Has now become very subdued does not want to eat hardly anything, and will sleep 99% of the day which is very unlike her.
She also doesn't seem to be pooing much if at all but assumed that was because she wasn't eating but could be something else... She is however weeing.
We were only Bathing them once a month however realized this wasn't enough so have stepped this up to both being bathed once every 2 days.

I thought at first maybe the winter months had just slowed her down a little however she still isn't being herself and I am getting really worried about her.
Taken her to the vets and they recommended we deworm her in the hope this would clear her out a bit, which we haven't done before but are happy to do if people think that's going to help ?
The vet also thought Indy was underweight and was worried she would become anorexic.
We also started to bathe her in Reptoboost in the hope this would give her a pick me but no real luck.

Squirt who also lives with indy is fine up to around eating plenty generally very happy no signs of change with her.

Any help would be much appreciated!
I have put lots of info regarding the Tortoise below.


Tortoise INFO.
Breed:
Spur thighed Greek Tortiose.
Gender: Females
Diet: I try to feed them a very mixed diet as much as possible, they get Weeds, Mixed bags of Salad leafs, Dried flowers ( Made for tortoise) , Complete tortoise diet food balls, Plus Vegetables and Fruit on occasion.
Diet has been the same since birth.
Supplements: All food is regularly sprinkled with both calcium dust and nutrobal.
Hibernation: This is something I have completely failed on, Genuinely have been too worried to put them into hibernation so far but it is something I plan to do.
Enclosure: I have hand-made all my enclosures you can see photos below, The Tortoise table has Basking lights, UV Lamp, and Multiple ceramic heat lamps all controlled by sensors.
The temp range during the day is 25C to 30C and at night around 20C
They have an outdoor area that can be accessed during the day and on hot summer days, I put them in the garden to play.
Weight: I never use them Weigh them again another mistake but now am regularly am.
Indy 1807G
Squirt 1839G
Size by undershell plastron
Indy 175mm
Squirt 190mm
Barb and Angela hit the high points. I'll phrase my agreement with their posts in my own words:
1. Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. I know this is not what you want to hear, and it certainly is not convenient, but they need to be separated ASAP. Each needs its own environment. This is the most likely cause of your problem. They are nearing maturity and it is springtime, so this will be emphasized this time of year, and that is exactly what you are seeing. Tort communication is subtle and easily missed. This has nothing to do with overt biting, ramming, or other such obvious aggression. They do not want to share territory, but the submissive is unable to leave due to the confines of your enclosure.
2. They all look female as juveniles. Most vets get this wrong. You might not have two females. Even if you do have two females, they should never live in pairs.
3. Your ambient and night temps sound fine. Is there a 36C basking area during the day time?
4. Go easy with the calcium and nutrobal. With a good weedy diet, you don't need much supplementation. Twice a week on the calcium and once a week on the vitamins is plenty for most housing and feeding situations.
5. Keep up the soaks 3-4 times per week for them. Soak for 30-40 minutes in a tall sided opaque tub and keep the water warm for the whole time.
6. I agree that torts should not be wormed unless there are confirmed worms in a stool sample check.
7. Have you put a UV meter under your UV bulb to make sure they are getting enough UV, but not too much?
 

TortoisesFLA

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Barb and Angela hit the high points. I'll phrase my agreement with their posts in my own words:
1. Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. I know this is not what you want to hear, and it certainly is not convenient, but they need to be separated ASAP. Each needs its own environment. This is the most likely cause of your problem. They are nearing maturity and it is springtime, so this will be emphasized this time of year, and that is exactly what you are seeing. Tort communication is subtle and easily missed. This has nothing to do with overt biting, ramming, or other such obvious aggression. They do not want to share territory, but the submissive is unable to leave due to the confines of your enclosure.
2. They all look female as juveniles. Most vets get this wrong. You might not have two females. Even if you do have two females, they should never live in pairs.
3. Your ambient and night temps sound fine. Is there a 36C basking area during the day time?
4. Go easy with the calcium and nutrobal. With a good weedy diet, you don't need much supplementation. Twice a week on the calcium and once a week on the vitamins is plenty for most housing and feeding situations.
5. Keep up the soaks 3-4 times per week for them. Soak for 30-40 minutes in a tall sided opaque tub and keep the water warm for the whole time.
6. I agree that torts should not be wormed unless there are confirmed worms in a stool sample check.
7. Have you put a UV meter under your UV bulb to make sure they are getting enough UV, but not too much?
agree, that they're solo dwellers. I had to gift my second Hermann's to a friend because the one would run off the other from the food. It was only evident after I picked them up and noticed the marked difference in weight.
 

Tom

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agree, that they're solo dwellers. I had to gift my second Hermann's to a friend because the one would run off the other from the food. It was only evident after I picked them up and noticed the marked difference in weight.
They aren't necessarily solo. Many do fine in groups. Pairs are the problem. When its just one on one it is a problem.
 

TammyJ

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They are quite beautiful. Yes, they need separating. I think that is the problem, one is making the other one unhappy and stressed, and they each need their own space. It won't be easy but it will be worth it.
 

Lyn W

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Hi and welcome,
You have beautiful torts but please follow all the advice above and separate them - they will both be much happier and safer in their own space.
 

MaNaAk

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Could it also be due to not hibernating properly? Jacky has been hibernating and each day she has woken up earlier than Daisy and seemed to be more active. Daisy has gone through her first winter in 79 years without hibernating and up until this week has seemed to be slower due to being without the heat lamp. Today they were both outside tucking into dandelions. They are Greek tortoises but not spurred.

MaNaAk
 

Tom

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Could it also be due to not hibernating properly? Jacky has been hibernating and each day she has woken up earlier than Daisy and seemed to be more active. Daisy has gone through her first winter in 79 years without hibernating and up until this week has seemed to be slower due to being without the heat lamp. Today they were both outside tucking into dandelions. They are Greek tortoises but not spurred.

MaNaAk
Spurred tortoise = mediterranean spur thigh tortoise = greek tortoise = Testudo graeca
 

Tom

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wow! that's interesting. I'd love a herd o' Hermann's!
In Holger Vetter's book on the species, he describes them living in colonies of known individuals out in the wild. There is plenty of room to escape unwanted attention or aggression, and plenty of cover, but he reports that they know each other and maintain a hierarchy of sorts.

13204540515.jpg

I think it is this way for many tortoise species. You can't keep five of them in a 40 gallon tank, but you can certainly do it in a large well planted back yard in a temperate climate.
 

indy&squirt

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Hi all,
Thanks for all the great replies its really appreciated.
Very sad to hear they should be separated, I have always known this could be the case, I just assumed as they were from the same family they would be okay.
Tom makes a good joint as I thought Zoos kept them together but as you say, Tom that's in very large groups so maybe that's the difference.

Not sure what to do now :( They always seemed so happy.
Don't think I have the space or can afford to heat 2 separate enclosures.

Will have to think hard about giving one away :/

Cheers George
 

Lyn W

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Hi all,
Thanks for all the great replies its really appreciated.
Very sad to hear they should be separated, I have always known this could be the case, I just assumed as they were from the same family they would be okay.
Tom makes a good joint as I thought Zoos kept them together but as you say, Tom that's in very large groups so maybe that's the difference.

Not sure what to do now :( They always seemed so happy.
Don't think I have the space or can afford to heat 2 separate enclosures.

Will have to think hard about giving one away :/

Cheers George
That's a shame.:(
Bullying can be very subtle and includes staring, following, nudging, mounting and very close contact - often mistaken for affection but is the dominant tort telling the other to get out of his space. It can become more aggressive with barging tipping and biting. Very stressful for torts in enclosures where they can't avoid each other.
Would you be able to increase the enclosure size and add another similar sized tort? That seems to work better if the gender mix is right. Members who have small groups can advise you better about that.
 

TammyJ

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That's a shame.:(
Bullying can be very subtle and includes staring, following, nudging, mounting and very close contact - often mistaken for affection but is the dominant tort telling the other to get out of his space. It can become more aggressive with barging tipping and biting. Very stressful for torts in enclosures where they can't avoid each other.
Would you be able to increase the enclosure size and add another similar sized tort? That seems to work better if the gender mix is right. Members who have small groups can advise you better about that.
It would be great to increase the enclosure size a bit and add a third one, but with due diligence re quarantine measures.
 

Lyn W

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It would be great to increase the enclosure size a bit and add a third one, but with due diligence re quarantine measures.
Definitely only after quarantine!!
Thanks Tammy.
 
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