Puzzled

Moozillion

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Well, 2-year old my eastern mud turtle, Jacques, is sick again.

She had quit eating, so at the suggestion of forum members, I increased the light in her tank. She ate pretty well for about 2-3 days, so I thought we were home free, but then she quit eating again.
At a loss for what to do, I took her to the vet. This is an experienced exotics vet who treated her aspiration pneumonia successfully; he also has contacts at the LSU veterinary school and got consults on her case in the past.

Her white blood cell count is elevated again, indicating that she has an infection. Normal white blood cell count for aquatic turtles is 20,000 and hers was 25,000. That's not as bad as when she had her pneumonia, when her count was 30,000, but it's still very abnormal.
They have no clue where the infection is. She floats evenly (not lop-sided), dives and swims like usual. She is NOT anemic. Her eyes are bright and clear. She does not struggle to breathe, strain or gape her mouth. She has no nasal discharge, no bubbles and the skin inside her mouth looks entirely normal. She moves vigorously when stimulated.

They kept her for a week with antibiotic injections and tube feeding, and I brought her home 2 days ago.
But she's not acting any differently: hides in her cave and won't eat. She does not hang out over her heater or try to bask, and her water temperature is 80* She already has a follow up appointment in 2 weeks if she is still not eating.

I can't imagine what else I could do.
I have confidence in my vet, but I just feel kind of drained in trying to get her better.

I'm open to suggestions.
But maybe I just need to chill, try to be patient and accept that we don't always have answers...
 

TammyJ

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Oh no. I am sorry Jacques is not eating and you must be worried!
Have you tried not feeding her for a few days at all, then changing her diet? what do you feed her normally?
 

Moozillion

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Oh no. I am sorry Jacques is not eating and you must be worried!
Have you tried not feeding her for a few days at all, then changing her diet? what do you feed her normally?
Her usually eats earthworms quite happily, as well as raw or cooked catfish and cooked shrimp. Her favorite food in the world is fresh salmon sushi. But she won't eat anything. She sometimes picks up a piece of salmon, but then drops it and goes back to her cave.

To me, her not eating is a SYMPTOM of the mysterious infection, and is not THE main problem itself.
 

mark1

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I agree with Tammy j , I would stop feeding her for awhile ……… I have turtles in the house , they eat 2-3 times a week at most ……. I would try feeding her less and if she eats nothing for a month , I might start to become concerned …………. how often do you feed her normally ?
 

Moozillion

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I agree with Tammy j , I would stop feeding her for awhile ……… I have turtles in the house , they eat 2-3 times a week at most ……. I would try feeding her less and if she eats nothing for a month , I might start to become concerned …………. how often do you feed her normally ?

I normally feed her every other day. Or if she does “the salmon dance” (begs for food) I’ll feed her. But she hasn’t “asked” for food in several months.
 

Pastel Tortie

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Has Jacques ever just slowed down and been less active during the winter before? You upsized the tank a few months ago, right? Would she have any better idea that it's winter now, than she would have before? I know that wouldn't explain the infection aspect, but sometimes there's more than one issue going on.
How old is Jacques now?
 

Pastel Tortie

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Has Jacques ever just slowed down and been less active during the winter before? You upsized the tank a few months ago, right? Would she have any better idea that it's winter now, than she would have before? I know that wouldn't explain the infection aspect, but sometimes there's more than one issue going on.
How old is Jacques now?
Okay, I re-read the first post, and it mentioned Jacques is two years old. I hadn't realized she only has a couple years head start on Bold and Pinstripe! Bold and Pinstripe send their best wishes and hope that Jacques gets back to her old self soon.
 

Moozillion

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Wow!!! Thanks so much for all the replies and ideas! :)

@Pastel Tortie : As I see it, any sincere question is never "dumb!" :<3: I double checked, and she's actually 3 years old: I got her in November 2015 as a teeny-tiny juvenile. That first winter she was active and ate well. i don't remember how she behaved the winter of '16 but my hubby thinks he remembers her slowing down a little. Then last winter was when she had the near drowning accident (on Dec 8, 2017 ) so EVERYTHING was totally atypical after that. At 3 years old, I kind of think she's at her full growth, but I've never kept aquatic turtles before, so I really don't know. If she has more growing to do, I don't think it's much. I have NOT yet got her into her new tank, for various reasons that I won't bore you with. I hesitate to stress her further with a new environment when she's not well. But I don't know...

@crimson_lotus : I HAVE HAD THAT VERY IDEA. When she had her pneumonia, the vet said that his contact at the vet school said they were having good success with 2 weeks of nebulizer treatment along with the antibiotic injections, but my vet only did ONE WEEK of the nebulizer plus injection. His reasoning for that was she had already had 2 weeks of antibiotic injections, so shouldn't need the whole 2 weeks of the more intensive treatment. But now I wonder if that was the best decision. The vet's office is supposed to call me this morning to see if she's eating (she still isn't) and I'll see if I can talk to the vet then.

Thanks again to EVERYONE who has had ideas and support for Jacques!
:):<3:
 

Pastel Tortie

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If it wasn't for the elevated white blood cell count, I'd be inclined to think that Jacques was just slowing down for the winter. My young box turtle certainly has. Even when I get her out to soak, she hasn't been interested in food lately, whether it wriggles or not.

From what I understand about mud turtles, they can remain active, slow down, brumate, or hibernate during the coldest part of the year. Factors include species, location, climatic conditions, current weather, and of course the individual turtle.
 

Moozillion

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If it wasn't for the elevated white blood cell count, I'd be inclined to think that Jacques was just slowing down for the winter. My young box turtle certainly has. Even when I get her out to soak, she hasn't been interested in food lately, whether it wriggles or not.

From what I understand about mud turtles, they can remain active, slow down, brumate, or hibernate during the coldest part of the year. Factors include species, location, climatic conditions, current weather, and of course the individual turtle.
Yeah, I was thinking she was maybe slowing down for the winter, but after she had NO interest in food for over 2 weeks, I decided to take her in. I'm glad I did, since they found the elevated blood count.
I just wish they had some idea about where the infection is.
 

Pastel Tortie

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I think @crimson_lotus may be right. Jacques (and @Moozillion) went through a drawn out illness that was a mystery for a long time and took even longer to remedy.

Perhaps the infection didn't go away entirely, and now if Jacques is naturally slowing down during winter, the infection may be taking the opportunity to resurge. If that is the case, you are fortunate that you have her indoors and in water where she's easier to monitor.
 

Markw84

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Yeah, I was thinking she was maybe slowing down for the winter, but after she had NO interest in food for over 2 weeks, I decided to take her in. I'm glad I did, since they found the elevated blood count.
I just wish they had some idea about where the infection is.
Bea,

Could you ask the vet if they have ever compared the white blood cell count of temperate turtles Summer vs Winter? I could see a biological advantage of a higher white blood cell count in winter as metabolism slows and food intake stops. ...Just thinking.
 

Pastel Tortie

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Yeah, I was thinking she was maybe slowing down for the winter, but after she had NO interest in food for over 2 weeks, I decided to take her in. I'm glad I did, since they found the elevated blood count.
I just wish they had some idea about where the infection is.
Given what I know of Jacques and her history, my first guess would be the lungs, followed by the digestive tract. Don't rule parasites out before you rule them in first. It is at least possible because she has been eating earthworms. (The benefits normally outweigh the risks, but it does factor in there.)

The other notion that flickered in the back of my mind has to do with Jacques' age and maturity. Female mud turtles can lay eggs even if there's never been a male around. I don't know how much room there might be for infection, abrasion or irritation in a mud turtle's reproductive system, but it may be worth posing the question to the veterinarian.
 

Toddrickfl1

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My sliders have slowed down a lot since it started getting colder, and are eating less. Do you think it's possible she's just sensing the winter?
 

Moozillion

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Bea,

Could you ask the vet if they have ever compared the white blood cell count of temperate turtles Summer vs Winter? I could see a biological advantage of a higher white blood cell count in winter as metabolism slows and food intake stops. ...Just thinking.
VERY interesting idea, Mark!!!!!
I spoke to the tech earlier (the docs are having a crazy busy day, as can happen on a Friday). My instructions were that if she still isn't eating by Monday to bring her in early. And I expect that's what'll happen.
I'll have a list of questions- including this one!!!- when I go!
 

Moozillion

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Given what I know of Jacques and her history, my first guess would be the lungs, followed by the digestive tract. Don't rule parasites out before you rule them in first. It is at least possible because she has been eating earthworms. (The benefits normally outweigh the risks, but it does factor in there.)

The other notion that flickered in the back of my mind has to do with Jacques' age and maturity. Female mud turtles can lay eggs even if there's never been a male around. I don't know how much room there might be for infection, abrasion or irritation in a mud turtle's reproductive system, but it may be worth posing the question to the veterinarian.
THank you! I've added this question to my list!!! :):<3:
 

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