Pyramiding, Despite best efforts

[stells]

From what i can see its to many foods with a high/moderate amount of Oxalic acid are being fed... Dandelion... Chicory... past history of spinach etc....

Horsfields (Russians) don't do well when fed to many of these food... and you tend to get the lumpy appearance... they do much better on a low Oxalate... high fibre diet... i have some that have grown smooth on this sort of diet and have never ever had a humid hide....

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, I really like the two replies from BGTortoises and this last one from Stells. I have copied them and pasted them to a blank WORD document to save for future reference (so don't be surprised if you see YOUR words coming out of MY mouth in the future). They both make a lot of sense to me, and I thank you both for your insight.

 

[Kayti]

From what i can see its to many foods with a high/moderate amount of Oxalic acid are being fed... Dandelion... Chicory... past history of spinach etc....

Horsfields (Russians) don't do well when fed to many of these food... and you tend to get the lumpy appearance... they do much better on a low Oxalate... high fibre diet... i have some that have grown smooth on this sort of diet and have never ever had a humid hide....

I chose my diet based on this article:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rednine/nutrient.htm

Chicory and dandelion are listed among the foods with an acceptable amount of oxalate (highlighted in red). Do you disagree?
Would feeding them Mazuri help with fiber intake? Where else can I get fiber?
Thank you.

GBtortoises - What size enclosure do you recommend upgrading to?
Thanks again

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Just another idea for an enclosure... I keep my smaller tortoises in large rubbermade containers - you can see what I mean at russiantortoise.org. They are pretty cheap. I cut about one third off the lid for the light and cover the rest of the bin to keep humidity up.

 

[stells]

Yes i do disagree... esp if they are fed regularly... mine eat alot of Plantains... dead nettle... Petunia's... Pansy's... Opuntia... sedums... small amounts of Clover... i do mix in Dandelion... Sowthistle... Butternut Squash... once per week....

They are a species of tortoise i wouldn't give Pelleted food too they are pigs and i have a feeling they would get the "quilted" look on them...

From what i can see its to many foods with a high/moderate amount of Oxalic acid are being fed... Dandelion... Chicory... past history of spinach etc....

Horsfields (Russians) don't do well when fed to many of these food... and you tend to get the lumpy appearance... they do much better on a low Oxalate... high fibre diet... i have some that have grown smooth on this sort of diet and have never ever had a humid hide....

I chose my diet based on this article:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rednine/nutrient.htm

Chicory and dandelion are listed among the foods with an acceptable amount of oxalate (highlighted in red). Do you disagree?
Would feeding them Mazuri help with fiber intake? Where else can I get fiber?
Thank you.

GBtortoises - What size enclosure do you recommend upgrading to?
Thanks again

 

[egyptiandan]

I'm agreeing with Kelly on this one It is the diet your feeding that is causing your problem with pyramiding.
Humidity is good, but it only indirectly affects how a tortoise grows. Keeping the humidity up helps prevent a hatchling from getting dehydrated. If a hatchling gets dehydrated it can affect kidney and liver functions and that affects how it absorbs nutrition. If those organs are damaged it will prevent a tortoise from absorbing the vitamins and minerals it needs to build bone as well as other bodily functions.
So humidity is good, but it doesn't mean you can ignore what goes into your tortoise food wise.

Danny

 

[-EJ]

You didn't steal the information. Odds are this stuff has been drilled into your head throughout your indoctrination of keeping chelonians in the UK. You really can't be blamed for that.

What you can be blamed for is spreading that information and perpetuating this misinformation... that's the BS part.

I don't see where I questioned your honesty... I missed that one.

Ed-"Hey...don't take this personal...but when I read this my first thoughts were...BS...BS...BS."

So which part should I not take "personal"? The "BS...BS...BS." Or the part where you acuse me of stealing information without credit from "an organization we all know and love"? Which by the way I don't even know which organization that you are referring to.

First of all of the information that I state is my own opinion, based on a combination of experience and from reading pages and pages of writings of other peoples work over the years. My opinion and experience are by no means the gospel of tortoise keeping. Many people have different methods, when I write I am expressing the methods that have worked for me for 25+ years. My opinions are based on those methods. Other people have other methods that work well for them, they state them and that's good, it's how we learn. If I ever do quote someone else's opinion or work I make it a point to say so. So if you feel that I have plagiarized material please point out where I got it from. Because if I have I was not aware of doing so, nor have I intentionally done so.

I did not say that the size of the enclosure is a major factor. I said that it is a contributing factor and it is. As are the other contributing factors. If you place an animal (including human) in consistently warmer than normal temperatures without escape from it which increases it's activity level, feed it constantly and give it little room to move about or exercise it will not burn the excessive calories accumulated. The body must then use or store that energy somehow. Without proper activity the calories are not burned, they're stored.

I do believe that diet, both quantity and quality play a part in tortoise growth, development and health, (as do many other factors). But since you have commented that you "question the diet... or... the tortoises eating habits". Please elaborate and enlighten.

To everyone that reads this: I apologize for for wasting the above space to defend my character. This is not the proper forum in which to do so and it is my "opinion" that there is no reason to have to do so on a site like this one. But when someone questions my honesty I cannot be silent.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Lack of proper humidity is likely a major cause of pyramiding but not the only cause. A combination of other contributing factors may also be: diet (too rich in vitamins), excessive use of vitamin supplements, excessive heat, an area too small for proper activity and exercise based on the size and number of animals in a given area.
In my opinion, based on the size of the tortoise in your hand in the photo, their enclosure is too small for one tortoise that size, never mind two. I think they may need a more spacious activity area.
You don't specify if the 90 & 75 degree temperature are only during the daytime or if the 90 degrees is during the day and the 75 degrees at night. Either way, if that is ambient air temperature it is too hot for Russians during the daytime and nighttime. Especially in an area that small. With a basking area available amibient surrounding temperatures don't need to be that warm. They don't appear to have a place to escape the heat and humid hide area would probably also make a large difference. By not being able to better regulate their body temperature they are constantly burning calories. One cup of greens a day per tortoise in an area that warm, with not much room to be active can only cause accelerated growth which is not good. Accelerated growth is when a tortoise grows at a faster rate than it would under normal conditions. This growth may show up as pyramiding, upturned shell edges, elongated beaks and longer than normal and sometimes oddly formed nails. Some tortoises have the appearance of looking as though they are "growing out of their shell".
It's good that you're providing water but Russian tortoises aren't normally big drinkers, at least not under normal temperatures, that is why a humid hide is very important. Russians also don't usually consume cuttlebone as much as some other Testudo species.

I think this is one of the most succinct and objectively written opinions that I have seen on this forum. I read and reread all of the commentaries and advice on pyramiding since I have a severely pyramided tortoise, and I am determined that whatever shell growth she has yet to experience will be healthy shell growth.

We violated just about every aspect of tortoise care that you mention, GBtortoises: size of enclosure, lack of humidity, poor diet, inadequate water supply. I agree with you and others on this forum that there is a window of growth as a juvenile tortoise, during which all components of proper husbandry are critical to smooth shell growth.

No offense, EJ, but your post was unnecessarily provocative, judgmental and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Kayti]

Stells: I don't have many weeds growing around where I live, and I don't know how I would find enough to be able to feed all my torts. Is there a way of getting more fiber in their diet from store bought greens?
Or, should I try to grow my own indoors?

I can buy dandelion in most of the supermarkets around my house, so I've been feeding them mainly that. During school I barely have time to go to the market once a week to grab it- I don't know how I'd have time to hunt around for plantain/etc. How does everyone else do it?

Below is what I've done on their enclosure today. I switched to cypress, made a mossy moist hide, and just about doubled their space. I know it's not ideal and they could still use more room, but this was literally the biggest I could fit into our room.

Right now everyone is sceptically exploring the new substrate, but I think they'll get used to it. Mona went straight for the humid hide, which made me really happy.

Step 1: assembled shelves ($30 at big lots, thanks again floof!)

Step 2: Lined with tarp, silicon glue.

Step 3: Cypress, and furniture!

(On the right is Delaware the Sulcata's room)

Close up of the Russians':

Exploring the new substrate:

I can already tell the cypress will be much better for keeping it moist. The hydrometer measured 70% under the heat lamp, and 80% in the moist hide. Is that moist enough?
Thanks everyone!

 

[-EJ]

Provocative... yes... judgemental or irrelevent... definately not.

The enclosure/set up pictured was just fine.

Temperature and diet would be the only problems I would suspect. Space... not one of them.

No offense, EJ, but your post was unnecessarily provocative, judgmental and irrelevant to the discussion.

---

In most cases... bigger is better... not all cases. A xmas tree box would be fine. That would be better than the bookcase because you would not have to worry about rot.

Your bedding idea is perfect. This would give the tortoises a choice.

With your bedding idea you would not need a humid hide.

On the vitamins... nobody knows what is enough or too much. As you mention... a light sprinkling once or twice a week is probable the way you want to go... or... feed Mazuri and loose the vitamins.

Calcium intake is not a major factor in pyramiding.

I don't see where you mention the temperatures?

Thank you all so much for all your solid advice, I have a totally new plan of action now.

Key points:
1) New enclosure, much bigger. Does anyone know of anything bigger than a Xmas tree box? Or would that be big enough for the two of them? I’m going to go out and look at them tomorrow, but I am also looking into book shelves on Craigslist. I can’t afford a new one now, but used they are around $25 and they look pretty spacious.
2) Cypress bedding. The new plan is to keep half of it moist, half dry, so they can regulate themselves. In the past, I have only been spraying it ~3 times a day, and it always dries out. New plan is to add “enough water into the substrate so that when you pick it up and squeeze it, it will stick together in a ball, but not drip water” (thanks Stephanie). Would stirring it often help with keeping the mold away?
3) Humid hide with Sphagnum moss (thank you RF nerd). My old humid hides were made with sponges, which molded quickly. I have high hopes for the moss, hopefully it will work better!

GBtortoises- Thank you so much for all your help! I definitely agree with you that their enclosure is much too small. I justified it to myself because I only planned on keeping them in it while it is too cold outside, and also my boyfriend is really reluctant to have more of our room taken up by my pets. But, they need more space, so I’m going to make it happen.
1) I think it is possible that I have been over-dosing them on vitamins. How much is too much? Usually I add about as much (twice weekly) as you would sprinkle sugar on a waffle, if that’s any help.
2) I turn off the full spectrum bulb during the night, so only ceramic heater is on. It makes one side of the enclosure around 75F, the other a little less. The air around their enclosure is usually very cold, so I recently moved their hide to the warm side of the enclosure. I’ve always been so concerned with keeping them warm, I never thought I could be keeping them too warm. Do you think the addition of a moist hide and a bigger area for more temperature gradient will solve my problems with temperature?
3) I noticed that Ed, the less pyramided tortoise, does chow down on his cuttlebone. Maybe he is just strange

Sammi- I have these two Russians, and one Sulcata hatch-ling craigslist refugee. So far, her growth has been smooth, but I plan on switching her to cypress also, because she loves to dig and could probably use more moisture as well.
Again, thank you very much everyone, and I will update you all once I have the new set up going.

 

[Meg90]

I like what you've done, I think it's wonderful, and I bet they love it already. Keep an eye that they don't get over the sides though. Its unbelievable what they can do if they have the proper footholds. My adult Greek once (and only once mind ) escaped over 12in tall walls.

If this hasn't been suggested already, use spring mix as the bulk of their diet, and supplement as many broad leaf weeds and grasses as you can come by. That's what I do. I also rotate in romaine every couple of weeks for extra hydration. The spring mix I use has good variety, and I have had really great results with it. I have one slightly bumpy yearling because my humidity was wrong. With my youngest tort (almost 4 mos) I have fed her the same diet, she's under the same lamp, and in the same bin as my older tort was, and she's growing smooth as a stone. So I think that really proved (especially for me) that the diet was working out just fine.

 

[stells]

You can't use spring mix to bulk out your diet if it contains spinach... which from what i gather it does a fair bit of the time.... Russians are different to grow than Greeks.... Greeks tend to be able grow ok on a diet that contains Oxalates... although you do have to watch for stones... and i still stand by that statement... if you have never grown up a Russian you won't understand what i mean... and i do have one that i feel i started of on the wrong foot with before i really researched diet....

Grass... is ok to add into a diet... although Russians don't seem keen and it tends to come out the same way as it went in...

Kayti if you have a garden centre near by you should be able to get some of the plants i listed in my previous post.... i understand you can buy cactus pads over there too... one thing i do agree on is the occasional use of Romaine... it really isn't all that bad as part of a varied diet.... and does help with the hydration aspect... and also the use of bagged salad mixes but you need to research what is in the bag and be prepared to take out anything that is moderate/high in Oxalic acid...

I will dig out some pics of some of the Russians i have grown up... later.... at the moment a tad busy sorting out for a kids party tomorrow lol

 

[Meg90]

My spring mix does not contain spinach. I have used three seperate brands all without it. I don't feed my greeks anything high in oxalates at all. Spring mix is a good choice, especially for someone who can't get to the store often for more variety or specialized weeds.

 

[stells]

Just because yours doesn't... that doesn't mean that some don't.... i know Danny has had to pick Spinach out of spring mix before...

 

[Meg90]

It has to be listed in the ingredients if it is included. There are laws about that sort of thing. That's why every possible variety of lettuce is listed on the packaging and it just says "contents may vary" they have to tell you what MIGHT be in there. They can't sneak it in.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think that Earthbound Farms has eliminated the spinach since the e coli they had in their spinach last year.

 

[Kayti]

I stopped using spring mix because I couldn't find any that did not have spinach, but I've stopped looking since about a year ago when I stopped feeding it, so they may have changed the contents.

I stopped feeding romain because I read it had an incorrect calcium to phosphate ratio- has anyone else heard that?

Meg- I was thinking about what you said about escape artists last night when they started climbing their log hide and peering over the edge. I think they could definitely get out if they tried, so I'm going to have to devise something. I was thinking of using the extra shelves to make a to block the sides a bit, and I could use it as a work surface too, which would be nice.

Once Ed escaped out of his kiddie pool, outside, and it was the most horrific five minutes of my life. I was on the verge of tears when I found him all the way on the other side of the house, trying to eat a pebble. He'd wandered like 15 yards. From then on, all my outdoor enclosures had fence lids.

Last night I read EJ's Mazuri threads, and now I'm really thinking about pellets more. I hate the multivitamin I use- it's not even formulated specifically for torts, and it has a lot of protein and phosphorous in it. And, when I stopped feeding it to Delaware, she started gaining weight normally. I'm thinking of ditching the vitamin altogether, and feeding them Mazuri maybe 2-3 times a week, with greens, and calcium. The Mazuri website says the diet is 100% complete, no vitamins necessary.

Stells: I am going to head over to my nursery and see if they have any of the plants you listed, but I think all they might have is pansies.
I'm really good at growing things though, do you know where I could get seeds for weeds?

 

[-EJ]

The Mazuri is definately 100% complete.

The multivitamin I've been recommending for many years is Centrum... More specificly... Centrum Silver... if you think you need to use a multivitamin.

I stopped using spring mix because I couldn't find any that did not have spinach, but I've stopped looking since about a year ago when I stopped feeding it, so they may have changed the contents.

I stopped feeding romain because I read it had an incorrect calcium to phosphate ratio- has anyone else heard that?

Meg- I was thinking about what you said about escape artists last night when they started climbing their log hide and peering over the edge. I think they could definitely get out if they tried, so I'm going to have to devise something. I was thinking of using the extra shelves to make a to block the sides a bit, and I could use it as a work surface too, which would be nice.

Once Ed escaped out of his kiddie pool, outside, and it was the most horrific five minutes of my life. I was on the verge of tears when I found him all the way on the other side of the house, trying to eat a pebble. He'd wandered like 15 yards. From then on, all my outdoor enclosures had fence lids.

Last night I read EJ's Mazuri threads, and now I'm really thinking about pellets more. I hate the multivitamin I use- it's not even formulated specifically for torts, and it has a lot of protein and phosphorous in it. And, when I stopped feeding it to Delaware, she started gaining weight normally. I'm thinking of ditching the vitamin altogether, and feeding them Mazuri maybe 2-3 times a week, with greens, and calcium. The Mazuri website says the diet is 100% complete, no vitamins necessary.

Stells: I am going to head over to my nursery and see if they have any of the plants you listed, but I think all they might have is pansies.
I'm really good at growing things though, do you know where I could get seeds for weeds?

---

The Mazuri is definately 100% complete.

The multivitamin I've been recommending for many years is Centrum... More specificly... Centrum Silver... if you think you need to use a multivitamin.

I stopped using spring mix because I couldn't find any that did not have spinach, but I've stopped looking since about a year ago when I stopped feeding it, so they may have changed the contents.

I stopped feeding romain because I read it had an incorrect calcium to phosphate ratio- has anyone else heard that?

Meg- I was thinking about what you said about escape artists last night when they started climbing their log hide and peering over the edge. I think they could definitely get out if they tried, so I'm going to have to devise something. I was thinking of using the extra shelves to make a to block the sides a bit, and I could use it as a work surface too, which would be nice.

Once Ed escaped out of his kiddie pool, outside, and it was the most horrific five minutes of my life. I was on the verge of tears when I found him all the way on the other side of the house, trying to eat a pebble. He'd wandered like 15 yards. From then on, all my outdoor enclosures had fence lids.

Last night I read EJ's Mazuri threads, and now I'm really thinking about pellets more. I hate the multivitamin I use- it's not even formulated specifically for torts, and it has a lot of protein and phosphorous in it. And, when I stopped feeding it to Delaware, she started gaining weight normally. I'm thinking of ditching the vitamin altogether, and feeding them Mazuri maybe 2-3 times a week, with greens, and calcium. The Mazuri website says the diet is 100% complete, no vitamins necessary.

Stells: I am going to head over to my nursery and see if they have any of the plants you listed, but I think all they might have is pansies.
I'm really good at growing things though, do you know where I could get seeds for weeds?

 

[Kayti]

Is that a human multivitamin?

 

[-EJ]

Yup.

Is that a human multivitamin?