Pyramiding

[IvyGirl]

Hiya,

I can see and feel a height difference on my Sulcata Frank’s shell and I am assuming this is pyramiding. Can someone have a look and let me know your opinions please.
He (obviously don’t know yet) is about 9 months old, the substrate is predominantly coco coir 80% of the enclosure and 20% is hemp (this will be changed to orchid bark shortly but could not get it when it needed changing last. The humidity is 80-85% now, however, my baby was not looking well for a while and had a lesion on its neck so I made its enclosure dry to help dry this out and help it fall off (approx 2-3 months). During this time he did not grow at all or gain any weight but since he has healed he has started to grow however this is where the ridge is formed. He gets a 20-30 minute warm bath daily, eats grasses and weeds along with salad leaves as a top up.
As he is so little I think it should be ok in the long run but just after some reassurance really.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello! Cute little fella

With humidity maintained at 80-85 24/7 moving forward, growth should start to smooth and and become virtually insignificant as he gets bigger

May I ask what kind of lighting you have? This can sometimes contribute to pyramiding if it’s the wrong kind so always good to double check on here. If you could have a go at answering these, that would be wonderful! Might help in giving some further pointers on housing if needed

What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
Is he kept in a closed chamber?
What kind of monitoring do you have?
What kind of things are you offering diet wise?

A photo of the full thing would be great if you’re up for sharing

 

[IvyGirl]

Thank you for the reply, yes he is in a closed chamber. He eats mostly fresh grass and weeds topped up with salad leaves from the supermarket which I dust with tortoise calcium and vitamin power.

Temps are on an dimmable thermostat with a ceramic heat emitter. I can’t remember the wattage exactly but I want to say 100w. It’s higher than my leopard gecko’s which is 50w. Basking is 35 degrees, warmer end is 31 and cooler is 27. I don’t know the Fahrenheit temps sorry. Night is around 30 still. I have temp and humidity digital monitors at each end of enclosure.

The uv light is a strip uva&uvb zone 3 reptile bulb.

The enclosure is 5ft x 2 ft, wide lense distorts this I think and makes it look square which it really isn’t! The tray of coco coir is honestly covering 80% of the flooring which he gets everywhere and it gets cleaned out when he wakes up each morning when he is fed.


Sorry glass is not as clean as it could be!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you for the reply, yes he is in a closed chamber. He eats mostly fresh grass and weeds topped up with salad leaves from the supermarket which I dust with tortoise calcium and vitamin power.

Temps are on an dimmable thermostat with a ceramic heat emitter. I can’t remember the wattage exactly but I want to say 100w. It’s higher than my leopard gecko’s which is 50w. Basking is 35 degrees, warmer end is 31 and cooler is 27. I don’t know the Fahrenheit temps sorry. Night is around 30 still. I have temp and humidity digital monitors at each end of enclosure.

The uv light is a strip uva&uvb zone 3 reptile bulb.

The enclosure is 5ft x 2 ft, wide lense distorts this I think and makes it look square which it really isn’t! The tray of coco coir is honestly covering 80% of the flooring which he gets everywhere and it gets cleaned out when he wakes up each morning when he is fed.

View attachment 384957View attachment 384958View attachment 384959
Sorry glass is not as clean as it could be!
View attachment 384960

Thank you for the reply and photos! They’re SO helpful to give you some tips/pointers!
Temps sound pretty good, though I’d possibly consider an incandescent floodlight for your basking(Arcadia brand do them) 75w usually does the trick and it shouldn’t need a thermostat. I’d put that where the ceramic is currently and move the uv strip closer to it.

I’d then personally mount the ceramic in the middle next to some ambient lighting(the ceramic of course running on your thermostat 24/7)

The digital monitors you have are fine, though I’m noticing one is mounted quite high, you ideally want them all at tortoise level.

I can’t tell if your uvb is a t8 or t5 bulb(t5’s are more up to date) and I’m unsure on that brand, so I’m going to tag @Alex and the Redfoot to take a Quick Look, sorry I’m tagging you so often at the moment Alex! Lol

With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense, I brought it up as I don’t see any leds in there

I’m glad you’ll be replacing the hemp with orchid bark, that coupled with the coir will do wonders for humidity, I think one the most pressing thing is I don’t believe humidity is as high as we think it is at your tortoises level, you should be seeing condensation building up on the glass, are those vents open? If so I’d actually suggest tapping them over from the outside, don’t worry about air flow! No set up is air tight and you’re creating more than enough air exchange when you open it for daily husbandries. How do you generally maintain your humidity? Just misting? If so I’d switch to the lukewarm water pour method, it’s so much more effective! I cover it in the thread below

One last thing, I’d consider ditching that corner dish for water and stick with the clay terracotta saucer, those ones that are smooth lack grip in the event tortoise accidentally flips, makes for a nice feeding spot though

Leopard/sulcata starter

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information below on how I’d personally tackle an indoor starter set up for a leopard/sulcata until they’re bigger. Hopefully it helps give people some ideas!” I know it looks like a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[IvyGirl]

Thank you, they need to be out of reach as he loves to attack them, I am looking at changing them for white ones as he just does not seem to like black, there is normally condensation on the glass, I wiped the inside down to take the picture.
I can get rid of the second water tray, not really sure why I kept both if I’m honest.
I already use pouring warm water into the coco coir when the humidity gets low which I have done this evening too as it was low, it was left open at bath time which didn’t help.

With the lighting I will look into moving these around and setting some ambient lights not just the strip one. This should be easy enough to change.

The vents are blocked by laminated disks to help increase humidity on inside and taped on the outside, the inside as extra as he would scratch at them, still tries and pulls the disks off which he has done in one of the bottom ones. There is a gap between the front sliding glass doors which I did put rubber on for a while however this fell off so much that I removed it.

Thank you so much for your help.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you, they need to be out of reach as he loves to attack them, I am looking at changing them for white ones as he just does not seem to like black, there is normally condensation on the glass, I wiped the inside down to take the picture.
I can get rid of the second water tray, not really sure why I kept both if I’m honest.
I already use pouring warm water into the coco coir when the humidity gets low which I have done this evening too as it was low, it was left open at bath time which didn’t help.

With the lighting I will look into moving these around and setting some ambient lights not just the strip one. This should be easy enough to change.

The vents are blocked by laminated disks to help increase humidity on inside and taped on the outside, the inside as extra as he would scratch at them, still tries and pulls the disks off which he has done in one of the bottom ones. There is a gap between the front sliding glass doors which I did put rubber on for a while however this fell off so much that I removed it.

Thank you so much for your help.

Lol that’s fair enough! Love how mischievous some can beand cool that makes sense about the glass, great you’ve got your vents closed already!

No problem at all, it’s a lovely set up

 

[IvyGirl]

Do you have any recommendations for new thermostats? (Preferably not black ) as if I am going to replace them I might as well get good ones that are recommended. I find as these take readings from the back, they are less accurate when stuck to the side.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Do you have any recommendations for new thermostats? (Preferably not black ) as if I am going to replace them I might as well get good ones that are recommended. I find as these take readings from the back, they are less accurate when stuck to the side.

We personally use the exo terra combometers, some folks have given mixed reviews on these, we’ve always found them to be pretty good but others prefer these kind(haven’t used them personally but seem quite a few people use the brand)

Amazon.co.uk

For our combmetes, we run the probe wire down from a tiny gap in the vent, and I attached some reptile bendy wire so the probes can sit away from the wall(not sure if your guy might even find this more enticing though! Lol)

 

[IvyGirl]

This could be a way to go, hard to ram these around and bury them! I will have a look thank you.

 

[TammyJ]

Hiya,

I can see and feel a height difference on my Sulcata Frank’s shell and I am assuming this is pyramiding. Can someone have a look and let me know your opinions please.
He (obviously don’t know yet) is about 9 months old, the substrate is predominantly coco coir 80% of the enclosure and 20% is hemp (this will be changed to orchid bark shortly but could not get it when it needed changing last. The humidity is 80-85% now, however, my baby was not looking well for a while and had a lesion on its neck so I made its enclosure dry to help dry this out and help it fall off (approx 2-3 months). During this time he did not grow at all or gain any weight but since he has healed he has started to grow however this is where the ridge is formed. He gets a 20-30 minute warm bath daily, eats grasses and weeds along with salad leaves as a top up.
As he is so little I think it should be ok in the long run but just after some reassurance really. View attachment 384956View attachment 384955

Hello and thanks for joining this forum to get help for your tortoise.
You said he had a lesion on his neck at one point, and you dried out his enclosure to help it to drop off. This period of dryness is likely what caused the pyramiding, but more importantly, what caused the lesion?
Did you take any pictures of it at the time? Please inspect the tortoise for any other lesions or yellow or reddish bumps, and any missing claws, and let us know. Thanks.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

The UVB lamp is a good one. It's T5 type and Reptile Systems is one of the reliable brands. Zone 3 kit has similar UV output to Desert 12% lamps from Arcadia.

 

[IvyGirl]

Hiya,
I did post here back in July and got some advice about this.
Thread 'Little lump on neck'
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/little-lump-on-neck.216749/

I did however forget to update the e post as it was a few months before I was confident that my little guy was going to be ok. I told him to a vet who specialises in tortoises (locally recommended) who check him over and gave me some advice. I also spoke with Dr. Ossiboff at UF who was reccomended to me by someone on the forum in a message. They gave me advice too which I gave to my vet locally.

They said as in the UK it was not worth sending a biopsy across the pond. In this time the lesion had come away from my little guys neck so was advised to wait and see if any more showed up. So far so good, since this came off my little guy has finally started to grow and put on weight after no weight gain or growth for 3 months, he was eating and drinking the whole time.
It is now, 5 months after it fell off, that I worry about the damage this did to his shell, however insignificant to the fact I still have my beautiful little guy with us.
Thank you for the support with this period of his life too, we have luckily had no others show up so am hoping it was something unrelated to that horrible disease or if it was it that he managed to get through it without more harm than we saw. His neck has now no sign of it and like nothing happened.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Hi and welcome...I also have a small Sulcata...about the same size as yours...
Your baby is beautiful...but now that you are basically on track your guy NEEDS 85% humidity w/ 29 degrees Celsius...Do not allow him to dry out, put in some plants, so he can be out of a hide but under shade...I have kept Sulcata for many years...here is what you don't want to happen...this is why I am emphasize the heat and humidity...
here is the care sheet that most of us Sulcata keepers like to recommend...it is written by one of our foremost experts on keeping and breeding Sulcata...

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

My advice would be to not allow the heat or humidity to drop again. Feed him a pile of food just barely bigger than his carapace 3 times a day...make sure he has walking room...and please continue to hang around and ask questions...welcome and continue to soak daily for 15 minutes or so, making sure the water stays warm

 

[RhodaE]

I am no expert on any of this but thought I'd share this. We adopted our leopard tortoise from a dog/cat rescue place (he'd been found by a gardener and turned in). He was about 8" long, about 10-15 years old perhaps, and was extremely pyramided. He was literally as tall as he was long. This was around 2007. He's not had any issues at all since then (besides getting his head stuck once, and getting loose while we were on vacation and falling off a curb, ahhg), and he is definitely longer than he is tall now. Still pyramided a bit more than other adult leopards I see at zoos but perfectly fine. Here's a couple pictures of him, in 2007 eating a treat plate (he had year round grazing in CA until 2022), and a more recent photo (in his garden pond stream here in TN).

 

[zovick]

I am no expert on any of this but thought I'd share this. We adopted our leopard tortoise from a dog/cat rescue place (he'd been found by a gardener and turned in). He was about 8" long, about 10-15 years old perhaps, and was extremely pyramided. He was literally as tall as he was long. This was around 2007. He's not had any issues at all since then (besides getting his head stuck once, and getting loose while we were on vacation and falling off a curb, ahhg), and he is definitely longer than he is tall now. Still pyramided a bit more than other adult leopards I see at zoos but perfectly fine. Here's a couple pictures of him, in 2007 eating a treat plate (he had year round grazing in CA until 2022), and a more recent photo (in his garden pond stream here in TN).

Your Leopard Tortoise looks great! Nice job growing him up without the pyramiding continuing apace. It is actually hard to believe now that he had as much as is shown in your photo when you got him.

 

[TammyJ]

Beautiful tortoise!

 

[RhodaE]

Your Leopard Tortoise looks great! Nice job growing him up without the pyramiding continuing apace. It is actually hard to believe now that he had as much as is shown in your photo when you got him.

We try to put him in as much of a natural setting as possible. Lots of organic grass, lots of shrubs to rest under, a pond and stream to walk through (we try to grow water lilies but he usually drags them out ha). Winters are the challenge, he refuses to eat any type of calcium powder, pellets, etc so he eats grocery store greens but at least we have short winters here with a few days in the 60's throughout so he can get outside occasionally during Dec/Jan/Feb. Rest of the year, he's outside most of the day.

 

[IvyGirl]

Thank you for all your suggestions. What sort of plants would you recommend for coverage? Any that would survive in the conditions as I’d much rather use real than artificial.

 

[RhodaE]

My tortoise's favorite outdoor plants are 1) a large mexican feathergrass clump, very hardy, needs to be cut back in late fall 2) azalea shrubs, 3) large hostas. Also there is one area of my yard where I toss a bag of wildflower seeds in the spring and it grows a thick patch of very tall wildflowers and he loves to go lay in there against the brick retaining wall. It's hard to get him out of there and it's full of bees all day HA.