So my tortoise is about 5 now. And I wanted to get a tortoise to eventually breed her with. I’ve been researching and 9/10 of the Tortoise forum and Reddit posts say you should keep the Male and female in separate enclosures. I have acres of space in my backyard so building an enclosure for both wouldn’t be a problem. However, when I watch Tortoise videos on YouTube/TikTok I will see some people with 8 adult tortoises in the same enclosure. How is this possible?
Question about keeping more than one tortoise together.
- Thread starter RUGER5264
- Start date
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
Hello there! So tortoise of any species should NEVER be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression.
However, small groups are fine provided there’s lots of land, the correct male to female ratio and they’re similar sizes/age, hence you’ll see keepers with small groups.
Anyone you see housing a pair in the same enclosure shouldn’t be, hope this helps!🙂
However, small groups are fine provided there’s lots of land, the correct male to female ratio and they’re similar sizes/age, hence you’ll see keepers with small groups.
Anyone you see housing a pair in the same enclosure shouldn’t be, hope this helps!🙂
Explained perfectly by @Littleredfootbigredheart
Pairs are a no go.
Groups can work well in the right circumstances.
Also, You are likely to get very bad tortoise advice from YT, TikTok, and reddit. I tried to watch 15 different tortoise care videos on YT and every single one of them was just terrible. I couldn't finish one of them. Just awful and full of bad info
SealMarioz
New Member
Usually males of a species will harass and chase female to mate all the time which can lead to injuries and unwanted stress, some males of species (especially large sudanese sulcata subspecies) can easily crush a female.
so it's best to keep a male and female housing seperate most of the time especially when you are gone unless you want injuries. (I learned this the hard way with breeding some arboreal lizards.)
My uncle who breeds sulcatas, leos, and box turtles, has 3 seperate paddocks for the sulcatas and grazing areas but only keeps 3 females in a 150 foot pen. Males live on their own pens. Some species like sulcatas (especially the sudanese subspecies) males get massive and can even crush a female.
I have 2 small female sulcatas that live and raised together but they have enough space of to be seperate in a 20 foot pen if a fight would occur.
so it's best to keep a male and female housing seperate most of the time especially when you are gone unless you want injuries. (I learned this the hard way with breeding some arboreal lizards.)
My uncle who breeds sulcatas, leos, and box turtles, has 3 seperate paddocks for the sulcatas and grazing areas but only keeps 3 females in a 150 foot pen. Males live on their own pens. Some species like sulcatas (especially the sudanese subspecies) males get massive and can even crush a female.
I have 2 small female sulcatas that live and raised together but they have enough space of to be seperate in a 20 foot pen if a fight would occur.
It does thanks! Question tho. When you say “a pair in the same enclosure” do you mean like a tank. Or a large outdoor environment. Or both?
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
The thing is that in groups the male aggression is spread out over multiple females so it isn't as bad. This thread explains it well: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
Both
one on one housing is just too intense for both the tortoises, any aggressive behaviour is directed solely towards the one mate, when young, one can actually stunt the others growth. Groups seem to achieve the right social balance, again providing there’s more than enough land and the correct ratios🙂
From this thread:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...
tortoiseforum.org
9. Pairs: Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups of juveniles can sometimes work, but not pairs. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics. Whenever there are just two, one will be dominant and the other submissive. The dominant is clearly telling the submissive to "GET OUT!" of my territory, but the submissive can't. This can be seen in animals as primitive as flatworms. Most people do not see the signs in tortoises. Our tortoises don't have the ability to growl. They don't have lips to snarl, or hackles to raise, yet they show their hostility just the same, but in their own way. Following each other, cuddling in a shelter, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food pile... All of these are blatant tortoise aggression. People are looking for biting, ramming and other overt signs. Those overt behaviors do happen in some cases, but more often the two tortoises are just forced to live in each other's space in a state of constant chronic stress, while the owner thinks everything is just fine because they aren't actively attacking and biting each other. It is NOT fine. Keep tortoises alone, which is totally fine, or in groups of three or more, which can sometimes lead to other problems down the road as they all begin to mature. Tortoises do not want or need company. Some species tolerate company better than others, but none should be kept in pairs. For some breeding projects, it is advantageous to raise them up in groups, but never pairs. If you only want two tortoises, that is great. Get two separate enclosures. And two outdoor enclosures for fair weather too.
Its not just that the same amount of aggression is spread out. In groups aggression over all tends to subside. An aggressor can fight a single opponent and work to drive the other tortoise from its territory. If the whole territory is crawling with other tortoises, there is just no point in trying to constantly fight and drive off every tortoise. As the aggressor starts to think about getting rid of the tortoise in front of him, another walks by, and then another... It becomes pointless and futile, so the main aggressor just quits and accepts the group When it is just one on one, the main aggressor will ramp up his efforts and continue trying to drive the lone interloper out, and all of that aggression is focused solely on the other half of a pair.
Its similar in breeder groups. If there is just one male and one female, he will constantly seek out and try to breed the lone female. When there are multiple receptive females present, the male tends to relax a bit and over all breed less since his efforts are not focused all on one. To throw some hypothetical numbers out there for clarification, a male housed in a pair may try to breed that female 10 times in a given time period. If there are three females, he may try to breed only a total of 3 or 4 times total in that same given time period, with his attention divided amongst all three of them. There are less total breeding attempts. So instead of one female being bred 10 times, each females gets bred once or twice.
We see examples of this in other animals too. Ravens tend to pair off as adults and then defend a territory. They actively attack and drive off any other raven that enters their territory, but... If one of those driven off ravens sees a large food bounty, it will go recruit as many "friends" as it can and bring them back to the food source. The resident dominant pair, can't possibly fight all of them, so they just give in and feed on the carcass along with the group of interlopers with little to no aggression.
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
Appreciate this in depth explanation!🙂
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Learning something new here everyday!
Just making pleasant Sunday morning conversation here:
I'm a career professional animal trainer. Animal behavior is all I do all day every day. I have college degrees in it, and I work with birds, mammals, fish, insects, and reptiles, managing their behavioral issues 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Its a lifestyle and there is no vacation from it.
Having said all of that, this pair thing is so hard to get across to people. No matter what analogies I employ, and no matter how I try to explain it, people just don't seem to get it. Conversely, I am a big fan of chameleons and have raised and kept many of them of several species over the decades. This pair thing is immediately understood and observed with people who keep chameleons. Even new people. Anyone who doesn't understand and observe these principals quickly finds out the hard way, and loses their animals. We see the same sorts of problems with tortoises, but because of their hard shells, their hardiness, their rigid mouths, their inability to run and hide in three dimensions (Chameleons can, go up or down in their enclosures...)and their lack of ability to change color to show displeasure, the majority of people just don't see this in tortoises, and some people just don't WANT to see it. It confounds me. It is so obvious to me and other people in my profession, but so difficult to explain to "normal" people.
If what I'm saying about not keeping them in pairs doesn't make sense, I urge people to ask a chameleon keeper about this. Its the same sort of thing. People with tortoises are skeptical about it, but people with chameleons just understand and accept it. These two types of animals are not exactly the same. For example, Chameleons won't do well in groups either, where tortoises can do well that way, but I find the difference in explaining this concept to the two groups of people astounding.
