Question about nail trim + pinworms

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

Hello,

I recently took my RT to an exotic pet vet for a nail and beak trim. I felt like he was having a hard time picking up food, so I felt it was time to take him in since I didn't have any luck doing it myself. So I went to the vet on Tuesday the 17th and picked him up the next afternoon on the 18th. They sedated him and kept him overnight. Today when I was soaking him, I noticed that the two bumps on both of his front legs look like they were filed down and the ends look like they have dried blood. Should I be concerned?

Also side note - they did a fecal test that showed that he has pinworms. I've never seen anything in his poops and he poops A LOT. They said I should take him in over the the next three weeks where they will tube feed him panacur. Should I do this? Any suggestions on how to proceed?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’m not a big fan of the fact they had to sedate him for a beak and nail trim, to me, if the vet is tortoise savy(which they rarely are unfortunately), sedation should be a last resort for a none invasive procedure like a trim. It does kind of look like they caught some of his scales with a dremel, not sure how that’s possible, but if they did it on purpose to file them down, that’s bizarre and absurd.

I’d ask for the results of the sample, I’m curious what his numbers were like. Administering it by tube seems very invasive for a tortoise with no obvious symptoms of worms, I’m curious to hear others input on your vet visit

 

[zovick]

@Mitchie_and_Sunny_27
Almost all tortoises have pinworms and they do not cause the tortoise any problems unless they are extremely high in numbers. Several extremely tortoise-knowledgeable exotics vets have advised me over the years that unless there is a really high level of pinworms, it is not necessary to treat for them.

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I’m not a big fan of the fact they had to sedate him for a beak and nail trim, to me, if the vet is tortoise savy(which they rarely are unfortunately), sedation should be a last resort for a none invasive procedure like a trim. It does kind of look like they caught some of his scales with a dremel, not sure how that’s possible, but if they did it on purpose to file them down, that’s bizarre and absurd.

I’d ask for the results of the sample, I’m curious what his numbers were like. Administering it by tube seems very invasive for a tortoise with no obvious symptoms of worms, I’m curious to hear others input on your vet visit

I also thought it was odd that they sedated him but, since they are an exotic vet clinic and the vet told me she has a tort herself, I thought she knew what she was doing. To me it looks like they intentionally shaved down those scales, because they now have straight edges and that's definitely not what they looked like before I took him in.

Honestly, it was all around kind of weird and extremely expensive. It was nearly $250 for a wellness check, fecal test, they "oiled" his shell, beak + nail trim (which involved the overnight stay as previously mentioned). I don't know if that's the average rate but I was shocked.

I'll call the vet back and ask about the pinworm numbers and let you know what they say. I appreciate your input. I was feeling crazy!!

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I’m not a big fan of the fact they had to sedate him for a beak and nail trim, to me, if the vet is tortoise savy(which they rarely are unfortunately), sedation should be a last resort for a none invasive procedure like a trim. It does kind of look like they caught some of his scales with a dremel, not sure how that’s possible, but if they did it on purpose to file them down, that’s bizarre and absurd.

I’d ask for the results of the sample, I’m curious what his numbers were like. Administering it by tube seems very invasive for a tortoise with no obvious symptoms of worms, I’m curious to hear others input on your vet visit

Okay so I just called them and they said that they don't "count" or really take into consideration the amount of pinworms, if they see even one pinworm, their protocol is to treat the tortoises by tube feeding them (3 times), keeping them overnight over the span on three weeks. When I asked how many they saw, they just said they don't keep track of that.

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

@Mitchie_and_Sunny_27
Almost all tortoises have pinworms and they do not cause the tortoise any problems unless they are extremely high in numbers. Several extremely tortoise-knowledgeable exotics vets have advised me over the years that unless there is a really high level of pinworms, it is not necessary to treat for them.

Thank you so much for letting me know. I've literally never seen anything odd in his poop, so I don't imagine he has many.

Also, I just called the vet and they said that they don't "count" or really take into consideration the amount of pinworms, if they see even one pinworm, their protocol is to treat the tortoises by tube feeding them (3 times), keeping them overnight over the span on three weeks. When I asked how many they saw, they just said they don't keep track of that.

I think I'm just gonna not go back there...

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I also thought it was odd that they sedated him but, since they are an exotic vet clinic and the vet told me she has a tort herself, I thought she knew what she was doing. To me it looks like they intentionally shaved down those scales, because they now have straight edges and that's definitely not what they looked like before I took him in.

Honestly, it was all around kind of weird and extremely expensive. It was nearly $250 for a wellness check, fecal test, they "oiled" his shell, beak + nail trim (which involved the overnight stay as previously mentioned). I don't know if that's the average rate but I was shocked.

I'll call the vet back and ask about the pinworm numbers and let you know what they say. I appreciate your input. I was feeling crazy!!

Unfortunately so many vets preach being tortoise savvy, but their treatment doesn’t often reflect that, which I feel has sadly been the case here, I agree with you that those scales look really suspicious, if you speak with them again I’d definitely email those pictures and ask what the deal is, if he was accidentally caught, they should’ve told you that.

Thank you so much for letting me know. I've literally never seen anything odd in his poop, so I don't imagine he has many.

Also, I just called the vet and they said that they don't "count" or really take into consideration the amount of pinworms, if they see even one pinworm, their protocol is to treat the tortoises by tube feeding them (3 times), keeping them overnight over the span on three weeks. When I asked how many they saw, they just said they don't keep track of that.

I think I'm just gonna not go back there...

Nope that’s a huge red flag, I wouldn’t want to go back there either, that’s a ridiculous answer they’ve given you!

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

Unfortunately so many vets preach being tortoise savvy, but their treatment doesn’t often reflect that, which I feel has sadly been the case here, I agree with you that those scales look really suspicious, if you speak with them again I’d definitely email those pictures and ask what the deal is, if he was accidentally caught, they should’ve told you that.

Nope that’s a huge red flag, I wouldn’t want to go back there either, that’s a ridiculous answer they’ve given you!

Ughh I'm so frustrated. I only went there because my regular vet where I take my cats, recommended them. But now I'm feeling like they are super shady. Do you think my tortoise will be fine with his scales like that? I don't want him to get an infection or something.

Yeah - never going back!! Ugh. Sadly there aren't many options in Indy, I think there is one more exotic vet a bit further from me. But hopefully I just won't have any issues moving forward. I suppose I'll just have to figure out how to trim his beak myself. My poor boy

 

[zovick]

Ughh I'm so frustrated. I only went there because my regular vet where I take my cats, recommended them. But now I'm feeling like they are super shady. Do you think my tortoise will be fine with his scales like that? I don't want him to get an infection or something.

Yeah - never going back!! Ugh. Sadly there aren't many options in Indy, I think there is one more exotic vet a bit further from me. But hopefully I just won't have any issues moving forward. I suppose I'll just have to figure out how to trim his beak myself. My poor boy

I think the scales should heal on their own over time.

It is probably a good idea to steer clear of that vet's office. It doesn't sound as though they have the best interests of the patient (and its owner) in mind.

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I think the scales should heal on their own over time.

It is probably a good idea to steer clear of that vet's office. It doesn't sound as though they have the best interests of the patient (and its owner) in mind.

Okay good - I just keep wondering if he's in pain. Like I know I've cut my finger nails too short before and it's not comfy! I'm glad to know they should heal with time though.

Definitely never going back there. I'm so mad for my little guy

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Ughh I'm so frustrated. I only went there because my regular vet where I take my cats, recommended them. But now I'm feeling like they are super shady. Do you think my tortoise will be fine with his scales like that? I don't want him to get an infection or something.

Yeah - never going back!! Ugh. Sadly there aren't many options in Indy, I think there is one more exotic vet a bit further from me. But hopefully I just won't have any issues moving forward. I suppose I'll just have to figure out how to trim his beak myself. My poor boy

I’m so sorry you had this experience! I’m actually pretty angry for you, they either did it on purpose thinking taking a bit of hard scale keratin wouldn’t hurt and maybe prevent potential snags, but it was completely unnecessary, and if there is dried blood, I’ll bet it did hurt a bit, not a lot I imagine, but still, shouldn’t be done. Or they possibly did it on accident and didn’t tell you, awful either way.

But don’t fret, he’ll be okthere’s certainly no serious damage done, it’s probably already dried up and not bothering him, as zovick said, they will heal

We aren’t spoilt for choice in our area either, but I think it’s unfortunately quite typical, good tortoises vets really are diamonds in the rough, luckily we only needed one once.
Do you happen to have any pics of what his beak looked like before the trim? I’m curious, because if it isn’t too bad, it should be easier for you to learn at home. How often was he needing one?

 

[Tom]

I would ask them what happened to those front leg scales, and hold them accountable. There is no reason ever why those should have been filed, and it likely happened because they stuck your tortoise in a small unfamiliar enclosure and he spent the day trying to climb out. A little triple antibiotic ointment will help prevent infection.

It's absurd that they are telling you that they don't count the worms. Yes they do. That is how a fecal is done. Ova and any actual worms present are counted and computated for a given area to assess what the load is. These people are scamming their customers out of money.

There is no reason on earth why the tortoise should be held overnight for beak or nail trims.

The fact that you need the beak or nails trimmed indicates a husbandry issue. Review this info, and click on the temperate species thread near the bottom, and see what changes you need to make going forward to prevent these problems. Questions are welcome and we will help you.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I’m so sorry you had this experience! I’m actually pretty angry for you, they either did it on purpose thinking taking a bit of hard scale keratin wouldn’t hurt and maybe prevent potential snags, but it was completely unnecessary, and if there is dried blood, I’ll bet it did hurt a bit, not a lot I imagine, but still, shouldn’t be done. Or they possibly did it on accident and didn’t tell you, awful either way.

But don’t fret, he’ll be okthere’s certainly no serious damage done, it’s probably already dried up and not bothering him, as zovick said, they will heal

We aren’t spoilt for choice in our area either, but I think it’s unfortunately quite typical, good tortoises vets really are diamonds in the rough, luckily we only needed one once.
Do you happen to have any pics of what his beak looked like before the trim? I’m curious, because if it isn’t too bad, it should be easier for you to learn at home. How often was he needing one?

@Littleredfootbigredheart

I ended up emailing the pictures to the vet to show the scales with the blood. The vet called me and explained that she intentionally did dremel down the scales which she called "scoots". She said they are also called "callouses" and she felt that they were overgrown, which effects his ability to walk properly. I didn't say anything about him having any difficulty to walk when I scheduled him. She said that as a vet, she had a hard call to make because he was already under anesthesia, so she decided it would be better to do it while he was under than have to schedule him again and put him back under. She said that at the time she filed them down that there was no blood and that likely when his blood pressure fluctuated after coming out of the anesthesia, that that's what caused the blood to pool. She didn't think it was necessary to tell me because at the time she did it, she didn't see any blood and believed she was in the clear.

She told me that I could give him a bath in epsom salt or clean it with saline solution and put a bandaid on there if he is still actively bleeding and to let her know if the wounds turn purple or swell as that would be a sign of infection. Ughhh.

So far he has been fine. I didn't do any of the stuff she said lol

I have just been monitoring him and so far he seems fine and is walking fine.
Here is a picture of his beak. She said she gave him teeth so he can grab onto food better.

This was the first time he's gotten a beak trim since I've adopted him. I believe the rescue also did it one time.


Here is an updated picture on the scales on his leg. They aren't red anymore but have a white center in each of the ends.

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I would ask them what happened to those front leg scales, and hold them accountable. There is no reason ever why those should have been filed, and it likely happened because they stuck your tortoise in a small unfamiliar enclosure and he spent the day trying to climb out. A little triple antibiotic ointment will help prevent infection.

It's absurd that they are telling you that they don't count the worms. Yes they do. That is how a fecal is done. Ova and any actual worms present are counted and computated for a given area to assess what the load is. These people are scamming their customers out of money.

There is no reason on earth why the tortoise should be held overnight for beak or nail trims.

The fact that you need the beak or nails trimmed indicates a husbandry issue. Review this info, and click on the temperate species thread near the bottom, and see what changes you need to make going forward to prevent these problems. Questions are welcome and we will help you.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

@Tom

I emailed the pics to the vet and she said that she filed the scales on purpose. She called them "scoots"/ "callouses" and said that they were overgrown and effect how he walks. I've never observed any issues with the way he walks. She said that since he was already under anesthesia that she had a "tough call to make" and decided to shave those down. I didn't get a call or anything about this, which is why I was so confused when I saw the blood in those areas. She told me to soak him in Epsom salt or spray with saline solution. I did neither since of course don't trust what this vet has said/done. Thanks for the recommendation on the ointment.

Also, she said they sedate the tortoises for beak and nail trims because "when they pull their heads back, they can become injured and even die". So now I'm worried that this has happened in their care before... It makes me worried for other torts that will go there in the future

Lastly, the first time I called about the pinworm count I didn't speak to the vet, must've been a tech or front desk person. When the vet called me to follow up about my email regarding his filed leg scales, I did ask her about the pinworm count. She said that they observed "1+" but that "it doesn't matter how many are observed because he can have hundreds inside because the female pinworms carry tons of eggs". That's why their protocol is treat no matter what because "the count isn't accurate". This is all what she said, literally.

Thanks for the link - I'll review it so that I can better maintain his beak and nails on my own. Thank you for you feedback

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@Littleredfootbigredheart

I ended up emailing the pictures to the vet to show the scales with the blood. The vet called me and explained that she intentionally did dremel down the scales which she called "scoots". She said they are also called "callouses" and she felt that they were overgrown, which effects his ability to walk properly. I didn't say anything about him having any difficulty to walk when I scheduled him. She said that as a vet, she had a hard call to make because he was already under anesthesia, so she decided it would be better to do it while he was under than have to schedule him again and put him back under. She said that at the time she filed them down that there was no blood and that likely when his blood pressure fluctuated after coming out of the anesthesia, that that's what caused the blood to pool. She didn't think it was necessary to tell me because at the time she did it, she didn't see any blood and believed she was in the clear.

She told me that I could give him a bath in epsom salt or clean it with saline solution and put a bandaid on there if he is still actively bleeding and to let her know if the wounds turn purple or swell as that would be a sign of infection. Ughhh.

So far he has been fine. I didn't do any of the stuff she said lol

I have just been monitoring him and so far he seems fine and is walking fine.View attachment 398765
Here is a picture of his beak. She said she gave him teeth so he can grab onto food better.

This was the first time he's gotten a beak trim since I've adopted him. I believe the rescue also did it one time.

View attachment 398766
Here is an updated picture on the scales on his leg. They aren't red anymore but have a white center in each of the ends.

I mean, I guess technically scales with a thicker layer of keratin could be called ‘callouses’, but that in no way shape or form means they need filing down, what a weird thing to do, you can tell by their location alone that they wouldn’t have been causing him any difficulty walking whatsoever, honestly even if they were lower down I don’t think they would cause problems walking either.

Omg absolutely do not bathe him in epsom salt, the sodium could cause all sorts of issues, I actually can’t believe she suggested that.. this vet is bizarre! I’m so glad you didn’t listen!! Saline would be fine to wipe on the area, but the recommendation for a plaster is stupid too

Beak looks fine, though I’m not sure on the ‘giving teeth’ approach, I know sulcatas kind of naturally form those notches on their beak, but I don’t see it as commonly with Russians and it’s certainly not something I’d purposely opt to do, has this woman ever seen what a wild Russians beak looks like? How does she think they grab their food in the wild without these ‘teeth’to me it just leaves potential for cracks to form, there’s a reason they’re naturally shaped how they are, doing this is just going to create different stress points that can lead to cracks.. idk what her line of thinking is, but on the plus side, if this was his first and only trim, it could be he won’t need them moving forward, good diet and husbandry should eliminate the need

 

[Mitchie_and_Sunny_27]

I mean, I guess technically scales with a thicker layer of keratin could be called ‘callouses’, but that in no way shape or form means they need filing down, what a weird thing to do, you can tell by their location alone that they wouldn’t have been causing him any difficulty walking whatsoever, honestly even if they were lower down I don’t think they would cause problems walking either.

Omg absolutely do not bathe him in epsom salt, the sodium could cause all sorts of issues, I actually can’t believe she suggested that.. this vet is bizarre! I’m so glad you didn’t listen!! Saline would be fine to wipe on the area, but the recommendation for a plaster is stupid too

Beak looks fine, though I’m not sure on the ‘giving teeth’ approach, I know sulcatas kind of naturally form those notches on their beak, but I don’t see it as commonly with Russians and it’s certainly not something I’d purposely opt to do, has this woman ever seen what a wild Russians beak looks like? How does she think they grab their food in the wild without these ‘teeth’to me it just leaves potential for cracks to form, there’s a reason they’re naturally shaped how they are, doing this is just going to create different stress points that can lead to cracks.. idk what her line of thinking is, but on the plus side, if this was his first and only trim, it could be he won’t need them moving forward, good diet and husbandry should eliminate the need

Yeah I'm convinced that this vet doesn't know anything about RTs!! He was walking just fine and those scales haven't changed since I got him, so I think his are just like that. Don't worry, I didn't follow her advice lol. I am so sad that I paid over $250 for this vet to harm my tortoise and potentially cause more harm with her misinformation. I'm seriously so upset. But lesson learned, I'm never going back.

The thing with Sunny is that he is such a picky eater. There are some days where he is fine eating his leafy greens. In the summer, we grow tons of the testudo seed mix from Tortoise Supply. But in the winter, we rely more on the grocery store greens, (which he doesn't like much) and Mazuri (which he loves). I've tried feeding him on a terracotta dish as was suggested on this forum, but he prefers to eat out of a small glass dish. Not sure why.

 

[Tom]

@Tom

I emailed the pics to the vet and she said that she filed the scales on purpose. She called them "scoots"/ "callouses" and said that they were overgrown and effect how he walks. I've never observed any issues with the way he walks. She said that since he was already under anesthesia that she had a "tough call to make" and decided to shave those down. I didn't get a call or anything about this, which is why I was so confused when I saw the blood in those areas. She told me to soak him in Epsom salt or spray with saline solution. I did neither since of course don't trust what this vet has said/done. Thanks for the recommendation on the ointment.

That is horrendous. Those are normal natural scales that are supposed to be there. Those are NOT called scutes. Scutes at the keratinous material that covers the shell. That would be like waking up from surgery and finding out the doctor decided to shave some of your nose off. This vet is ignorant, dangerous, and needs to be reported to the state veterinary board. You are right to be concerned about other tortoises being brought into this facility.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yeah I'm convinced that this vet doesn't know anything about RTs!! He was walking just fine and those scales haven't changed since I got him, so I think his are just like that. Don't worry, I didn't follow her advice lol. I am so sad that I paid over $250 for this vet to harm my tortoise and potentially cause more harm with her misinformation. I'm seriously so upset. But lesson learned, I'm never going back.

The thing with Sunny is that he is such a picky eater. There are some days where he is fine eating his leafy greens. In the summer, we grow tons of the testudo seed mix from Tortoise Supply. But in the winter, we rely more on the grocery store greens, (which he doesn't like much) and Mazuri (which he loves). I've tried feeding him on a terracotta dish as was suggested on this forum, but he prefers to eat out of a small glass dish. Not sure why.

Honestly I agree with Tom, they sound downright dangerous to be practicing and I’d be in good mind to report them, gosh I’m just glad you didn’t have to go in with something more serious, I dread to think what damage she could do, your boy has come out relatively unharmed, he’s back where he needs to be, with his loving attentive owner❤and will never see that silly vet again thank goodness.

Lol what a funny boy, there’s another member on here who’s Russian only likes eating from a specific blue plastic plate, refuses to eat off anything else, so bizarre

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

That is horrendous. Those are normal natural scales that are supposed to be there. Those are NOT called scutes. Scutes at the keratinous material that covers the shell. That would be like waking up from surgery and finding out the doctor decided to shave some of your nose off. This vet is ignorant, dangerous, and needs to be reported to the state veterinary board. You are right to be concerned about other tortoises being brought into this facility.

Right?! Scutes?! So weird! I could kind of understand her calling scales with some thicker keratin a ‘callous’, but even that would be a pretty loose term for it, like you say, they look totally normal! some are just naturally thicker and stick up more on others, it’s totally bizarre to have shaved them down, so unprofessional and is certainly a first I’ve seen, and I’ve seen some pretty crazy vet advice

 

[COmtnLady]

I agree with what everyone else has commented.

When I saw that they charged you to oil your tortoise's shell, it just screamed that they were trying to run up the charges they could put on your bill.

That they can't or won't give you an accurate count from the fecal sample, makes me question if they even DID a fecal sample. By definition it demands a count. It would be like if your own doctor charged you for a "blood count", then was not able to tell you how many red and white cells you have in your blood.

Overnight and anesthesia are both huge red flags. If they knew what they were doing, neither of these would be necessary, or called for, just to trim a beak and nails. In fact, the trimming should have been able to be done while you were there in the office. It should have been less than 45 minutes altogether, a regular visit's worth of time. Also, with a new Vet, I would have wanted to be in the room to SEE how they were treating my tortoise. There have been people come here after a trip to a Vet for the same procedure, and their tortoise had a damaged jaw from the Vet or tech holding its head wrong.

"Giving him teeth" is another indication of the incompetence of this Vet. The cut-in dip(s) to make "teeth" are actually weak places that could encourage cracks to start. That's not a normal shape, can make it more difficult rather than easier to eat. Its possible an occasional tort "in the wild" chips its beak to a similar configuration, but that is damage, not a good thing.
Watch closely until it grows out.
This could split into the soft tissue (the "points" will have more stress. They hit unevenly, hit first, put pressure on the cut-in place to split on up), which is one of the things you are trying to avoid by keeping the beak smoothy shaped to fit well with the bottom jaw.

About Epsom Salts, Magnesium Sulfate.
Its great for a human to soak sore muscles and feet in, is a good gift project for bigger kids to make into "bath salts" with a few drops of food coloring and a fancy jar, soaking clothes in it removes fresh blood stains, and it is a laxative if swallowed.
Soaking a tortoise in it would be really BAD. They drink that water, plus, it would soak into cloaca (think enema). I'm not sure what that much magnesium exposure would do. Your tort would have such a screwed up digestive system from it. I CAN'T believe a Vet would even suggest this!!!

This Vet should have known better about so many things that I'm gob smacked about it. At least she, luckily, didn't do permanent damage.

It might be good to insist Sunny eat from the terracotta, and add some other large flat rough areas that will help file things down. Some even use terracotta saucers turned upside-down and level with the substrate so your tortoise is forced to walk across it/them. It really does keep the nails and beak worn off quite a bit. The reason beaks and nails grow is that nature expected rough surfaces to wear those body parts off. It might be good to remove the usual dish, put the terracotta saucer in and just keep it there (wash it, of course, but don't give the option of the other dish). Sink it down into the substrate at least half the height of the sides so its simple to get into and out of. Your tortoise might go on strike for a few days and try to avoid using it, but Sunny will not starve herself. They can go a long time without eating, so don't get nervous. Let her boycott it for a week or longer. Just be sure to offer good fresh stuff every day like you normally would, eventually she'll give in. Yes, there will be wasted greens and such, but you shouldn't have to go through this problem with a Vet again, or at least seldom have to deal with overgrowth.

Also, I would let my usual Vet who recommended this one, know that this one doesn't know tortoises, and actually did several things wrong. It might be good to just make a bullet-point list of over-charges, non-answers, and questionable practices for fast/easy reference for your usual Vet, so they can know not to recommend this one anymore.

You have been doing a good job with Sunny, though. That's a nice smooth shell! Great shape! And she looks healthy and strong.




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