questions r.e behaviour and training...

[Koopa92]

So I made my first post the other day, and tbh I don't feel knowledgeable enough to post on other peoples' threads so atm I'm just wanting to learn as much as I can.

Now I'm a massive clicker trainer, I don't do dominance, I don't believe in it for a number of reasons and since I'm always on about how ANY animal can do it, and how everyone should use one in training, I think it's only fair for me to prove my theory of every animal (since Karen Pryor did it with a hermit crab I would hope this should be a manageable task!)
So far, I know people say red footeds can be trained, people have 'flash' trained them (substituting click for flash) now I would presume this is assuming tortoises are deaf? This I'm slightly dubious about, whether he senses my presence or can hear, every day twice a day at least I will shout over to him, he always pricks his head up and turns and most of the time opens his eyes if sleeping?

My goals are: to firstly shout name (with food visible), click (or other conditioned reinforcer) and treat (dandelion, clover and carrot since these are his favourites)

I then want to shout name (no food visible) click an treat until eventually he learns to come over to me when his name is shouted for a treat... Then perhaps add a target into the mix once he is more comfortable? I thought it would be a good idea for weighing and check ups etc...

I also think maybe (pardon the pun) it may bring him out of his shell a bit
More around humans and learn to trust me
More as he is a little shy...

Any thoughts on my ideas would be great if people have done it before and/or would be willing to also try it alongside me to see how we get on researching it and update how each tort gets on?

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[yagyujubei]

They're not deaf. But they don't hear well, especially in the higher frequencies. Good luck with your training.

 

[wellington]

Good luck. Keep posting the results on this thread, I will be keeping track. I think it would be possible. I would love to see a video when you feel he has it down.

 

[jaizei]

I think it will be interesting to see how it progresses.

There's also this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-can-you-really-train-a-tort?pid=350044#pid350044

 

[Tom]

You lost me when you said, "I don't believe in it..."
That is just ignorant. To disregard valid training methods that are proven to work and might be the best training method for a given animal at a given time, is foolish. Operant conditioning and classical conditioning are both good and valid methods for training. But don't forget that positive punishment (some forms of "dominance") is also a part of operant conditioning.

I'm the guy that gets to come in and literally save the life of the monsters that can be created by a dog that makes all his/her own choices and does not know who the leader is at any given time. It's not fun for me or the dog, and a few well timed leash corrections could have prevented this problem in the first place.

If you wish to close your mind to the potential benefits of other styles of training anew go the new PC route, that is you prerogative. I just have a tough time listening to it, since I'm the one who gets to clean up the mess on the percentage of animals that clicker training alone is insufficient. And BTW, Karen Pryor, who I too admire greatly, did not close her mind to other types of training and did not advocate this for others.

... good luck with your tortoise training. It will be interesting to see how far you get with it.

 

[Koopa92]

I do not mean to offend as I do not mean to cause arguments, you also can take or leave my opinions. What has worked for me has worked for me, I never said what Karen Pryor believed? I purely said she trained a hermit crab, for you to put words into my mouth is also your prerogative

A lead is not a natural item, therefore a dog pulling on a lead is irrelevant to dominance, the theories behind dominance are poor in my opinion (with great emphasis on my opinion) however how many dominance studies have been published? My dog was deemed 'dominant' she was frightened and scared of the world and showed this through aggression and what others would deem 'dominance displays' if a dog were to walk to somewhere exciting without being shown how to walk on a lead correctly, how fast would it go? Do you think if a lead were out in place it would go any slower? Chances are no. Are we going at the same pace? Chances are unlikely, therefore piling tends to occur leash corrections are harsh IMO and unnecessary as it wouldnt happen in the wild, I also feel a dog has evolved further than a wolf and is now NOT a wolf, wild dogs don't even form packs.

Anyway this is all by the by, whether we agree or not is irrelevant. I may have posted confusingly, either way I want to clicker train my tort so we will see how it goes

 

[ascott]

I want to clicker train my tort so we will see how it goes

Keep us posted...

Keep in mind that while torts can hear---their hearing is different that ours....in that high pitched tones and sounds are not always picked up....however, the low booming/vibrating sounds are easily picked up...hence, when you say you shout out to the tort---do you have a high pitched naggy voice or do you have a bass voice when you shout?

I would wonder if you could try the clicker and also something that offers bass/vibration and time which you get a quicker response from in equal and alike conditions....? I would venture to guess that the bass/vibration would get a consistent response over the clicky noise....but again, just my guess....

I base this guess on a couple observed events....dog barking, we have one dog that has high pitch annoying bark and our other deep "big dog" bark ...and also earthquakes....at our home one of the CDTs yard is up near the porch which is relatively near the back yard fence, when the high pitched annoying barking dog goes crazy seeing a rabbit...Humphry (the CDT) simply lays there in his yard or continues on with what ever he is doing....now when the Big Dog barker comes up and barks at some passing rabbit, Humphry will stop in his tracks what ever he is doing and will jet back into his hide...interesting? Also, two different times when I was in the same room with Humphry (while he was indoors during different recovery events in his life) moments before (and I mean about 20-25 seconds before I felt the earthquake---he came out of sleep and quickly booked to under this sturdy chair that was in my office and went to the back and remained there for the earthquake and then returned back to where he was after the earthquake....

So, if nothing else, you will certainly have fun with your informal experiment and I hope you do....share what you discover..it is always fun.

 

[Madkins007]

I think finding a stimuli signal they will consistently respond to will be your first challenge. Tortoises and turtles only seem to consistently respond to specific frequencies, although they sense vibrations very well and have a good sense of smell.

You may also have to experiment to find a good reward. With their low metabolisms, food may not do the trick in the same way it would for a mammal or bird. (They will certainly appreciate the snacks, I just wonder if they would do it quickly enough to establish the link between the treat and the behavior.)