Shells in Distress

[normav]

Hello. Perusing the forum feels like I have found the most valuable resource imaginable. I’m so grateful to be on here. Right now, I have an extreme situation, and I’ve decided it will be faster to post instead of continuing to search. My yellow foots are wild caught and have been with me 22 years. They came to me with some minor shell problems that were Vet treated with chlorhexidine scrubs and silvadene coating. This summer, outside, this seemed to start up again and by the time I realized the extent of it, they did not respond to treatment. A ‘not reptile vet that treats reptiles’ does not know what this is, but has me doing chlorhexidine scrub and complete silvadene slathering every 48 hours for the past 6 weeks and there is no end in sight. I have other husbandry questions, but at this time I need a diagnosis, and a treatment. My boy is actually losing scutes bit by bit. The shells are hard as rocks, there’s no odor, and nothing I see described here in postings I see looks or sounds like what I am dealing with. I will say my boy’s carapace is rough, ridged, and seemingly impermeable to the silvadene. My girls carapace is smooth and soaks it right up. Neither plastron has the same issues as either carapace-just a few rubbed spots. Thanks in advance for any opinions and advice.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

They look like burn injuries right off the bat.
What type of heating and lighting do you use?
Are they being kept too hot and too dry?
Has this been diagnosed as a fungal infection or a bacterial infection?

 

[normav]

They look like burn injuries right off the bat.
What type of heating and lighting do you use?
Are they being kept too hot and too dry?
Has this been diagnosed as a fungal infection or a bacterial infection?

Hello,
Thanks for the reply. How ironic I could be slathering them with silvadene and then putting them in their pen heated with clamp lamps. The damage was done before they came in from outside I think? I must ask...are you referring to all the lesions looking like burns, or mostly the one on top of my male (missing scutes and exposed (bone???)? I ask because that one was less portions of lost scute at the time and brought us to the vet in August, and they were outside at that time, and there could be no burn. From about Memorial Day to Labor Day, they live outside in a 20 x 75 pen and this summer they denned at night in their dogloo full of leaves (unheated) inside a Haxnicks sunbubble with a clamp lamp 4 feet off the ground. However, I did experiment with a tent made from glass French doors and that did have a clamp lamp about 24 inches off the ground hanging in the middle of it. If he sat directly under there it's possible? I only used it for about a week. He already was showing the lesions. This is a clear cut case of neglect on my part. Moving on, my immediate question for today is....do I continue with the clorhexidene scrub and silvadene slather? Skip the scrub? They are due for the treatment tonight.
My indoor pen is a 5 x 5 black wire dog kennel from Menards (I am in the northern US). I wrap it in plastic and use a Vicks warm air vaporizer for humidity. There are three clamp lamps with 75 watt bulbs placed at 24 inches off the substrate side-by-side (so they can bask together). There is a fourth clamp lamp at the opening to their den. This lamp is smaller and closer (could burn?) That lamp has a 60 watt household incandescent in it. The ambient temp is about 84 during the day. The substrate temp is about 80 during the day. The den has a pig blanket ( 2' x 4' plastic waterproof heat sheet laid vertically and plugged into a thermostat) on the outside wall, and no other heat in it. The den is metal shelving wrapped in plastic and camouflage blanket (for darkness) and stuffed full of leaves from their outside pen. They love the den and only come out to sit under the clamp lamps or when it's dinner and bath time. The substrate in the whole thing is layers of cardboard over linoleum over concrete with (this year) leaves from their outside pen. This is messy, the leaves have crumbled, and I won't use it again. I layer cardboard for insulation over the linoleum and I can pull a layer (or cut out a piece) if it gets soiled. By Memorial Day, there is hardly any cardboard left under the substrate.
This vet has no idea what this is. She is thoughtful and concerned and interested, but she is going with what I told her the treatment was when I acquired them 22 years ago and they had what a reptile vet in another state diagnosed as a DRY SHELL fungus. This current vet wormed them in August (she is confident with that part of reptile treatment), she wondered about vitamin A (too much or too little), vitamin D, calcium, etc. and she spent an hour looking online and talking to me and examining them, but she does not know what this is. Admittedly it could be fungal, bacterial, burn (never thought of that?) Concurrently she is injecting them with Convenia every 3 weeks (they have had 3 doses). My female had a bubbly nose in September, but the nasal smear showed "no pathogens." I have quelled this with humidity. Yes, I know, we are running blind. Help please.
1. Do I do the silvadene tonight? Should I switch to fungal cream (I have been reading on the forum)? Should I mix fungal cream with the silvadene? Is the chlorhexidine scrub hurting at this point (been doing it for months)? ARE ALL THE LESIONS THE SAME PROBLEM OR COULD THEY BE MULTIPLE?
2. PLEASE SEND ME A LINK TO BUY A TEMP GUN.
3. Please send me advice on AN OVERHEAD light or system that will heat (I read no basking is ok) as I may be burning them with clamp lamps too close to the substrate. Or, should I just raise up my clumsy clamp lamps?
4. I admittedly don't do a D3 light-they are outside all summer. I will start if you tell me to and what to buy.
5. Humidity monitor please? Also, how to humidify the den? Is there a vaporizer with a tube I can feed into the cave?
6. I am a woman. I don't have an electrician. I use a strip on an electrical outlet. I need stuff that plugs in. I don't know what to buy, but if you tell me where and what, I will do it. HELP??? I do love Amazon.
I have to go to work. I think their diet is ok. They have hearty appetites and good personality. Thanks in advance

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, you can rest easy. When a shell is injured, the top layer of keratin and the bone directly under it, die. This stays attached to the tortoise for a very long time, while new keratin and bone grows UNDER it. When the new keratin and bone is all finished growing and has covered the space beneath the dead bone, the top, dead stuff flakes/pops off. I have always told people this takes a year or two, but in your tortoise's case it has taken 22 years. I think the difference being the tortoise was full grown and not much LARGER new growth has occurred. It's the new, larger growth that causes the dead, non-growing stuff to 'pop' off. No larger growth underneath, no pressure to pop the dead stuff off.

Of course, what I'm seeing is a picture on a computer, and not a real live tortoise, so I'm only looking back through my memory banks at what I've experienced, but I'm 99% sure I've given you the correct scoop. What I'm seeing in those pictures is brand, new keratin under dead, flaking off old injured keratin. There's nothing to do. It's perfectly normal and natural what's happening. And not harmful or hurtful at all.

The new keratin that grows under a dead shell has that mottled look you're seeing. It doesn't look like the original keratin did.

I have to congratulate you on keeping YF tortoises for over 22 years. I would say you're doing something right, and you can stop worrying.

 

[Yvonne G]

. . . oh, and I LOVE the lady bug in the first picture!

 

[Yvonne G]

Since these were wild caught, my guess is that they were in a field that went through a controlled burn. But that's just a guess. You got them as full grown tortoises, right?

Just make sure the lights/heat you have hanging over the tortoises is no closer than 12" from the top of their back. Higher is better. Maybe look into radiant heat panels instead of lights. I mount my panels on the walls instead of overhead:

 

[normav]

Since these were wild caught, my guess is that they were in a field that went through a controlled burn. But that's just a guess. You got them as full grown tortoises, right?

Just make sure the lights/heat you have hanging over the tortoises is no closer than 12" from the top of their back. Higher is better. Maybe look into radiant heat panels instead of lights. I mount my panels on the walls instead of overhead:

View attachment 257365

This is overwhelmingly good news. I have been sick over this and worried Melba and Mabry would die of this mystery illness, even though their habits have not changed. Yes, Mabry was full grown and Melba was about 75 % grown when they came to me. She came first and he came later, and I suspect they are from different regions or countries (he is a flat 5 inches high at rest and 14 lbs, she is a tall 8 inches and round like a watermelon and 22 lbs. They have the same carapace length). I guess I haven’t yet killed them. About your radiant heat panels-do they push heat out both sides? My pig blankets are bigger, but they look similar. I guess I can get more of them-that’s a good idea! I’m off to do a normal bath without the scrub. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[normav]

. . . oh, and I LOVE the lady bug in the first picture!

Those ladybugs were hibernating in the leaves I used as substrate this year. They do cheer the place up!