Strange question, I know...

[rachamelia]

Ok to clarify...

I appreciate so much all of you who had actual info to offer me. Advice, opionions or sharing your own stories...if you did it politely without judgement or trying to "lecture", I truly do appreciate it.

To those few who decided instead to "lecture" ...

A) I am very well aware that he could and probably will use the money to buy more. But I am of the way of thought that if you see something in front of you that needs help, you HELP. I have been a vet tech for 9 years and am well veresed in how horrible people can be. I was simply trying to reach out looking for anyone who may have suggestions or possibly be looking for a new sully and might want to save a soul. Sue me for trying...

B) Yes. Animal control in fact does know. They just don't do anything about it. I am not so simple as to not contact them.

C) So sorry for all of you that said I can't "not do anything". If you had read a little closer you would have seen that I am in fact trying very hard to do all that I know to do to help. Financially I cannot take 3 tortoises in. Sorry I am not rolling in the dough.

There were some great answers and responses and for those I am extremely thankful. Like I said though, if you decided to try to "preach" instead, I am not interested. I joined this forum for feedback, information, to learn and to meet like minded people with kind hearts.

Although I don't really think the heckling will do much for the animals care once he packs up and leaves, it is something. However, you could also print up, something about his care ethics of his animals and pass them out to everyone in the flea market you can get to take one. I would also print up some good care info, put as much correct info you can to better their lives that you could hand off to the guy himself. Let him know, that if he doesn't take better care of his animals, you will go to the top to put him out of business. Leave your name off of any of the printed material if you want. However all this should be done after the nice approach and some helpful care instructions.

Thank you for all of your help and info!

---

I think heckling his customers, well to him it would be heckling, to you it's informing, would be a good approach. If I was looking a flea market animals and someone spoke with even a little knowledge in their tone I would listen to them over the vendor. Bring up points like "This guy is selling sick animals and will die soon in your care." or "you can get one for cheaper at BLANK, down the street from somebody more knowledgeable." tell people not to waste their money on his animals, even the people who obviously just looking with no intentions to buy anything. The more bad publicity he gets, the sooner he will pack up and move on.

Thank you very much!

---

Go stand by his stand and tell any potential customers what a d-bag he is and for them to not help promote him by buying his animals. After a while of not making a dollar and wasting all that time maybe you can drive him to a new product at the flea market like Avon beer mugs or something.

Not a bad idea!!

---

Do you know that animal control knows about him or have you heard. The only way to know for sure is to call them yourself. If you can get enough people to call and complain, like all the ones you said had nothing good to say about this guy. Really, how do people say those things and just keep walking and ignoring, kinda sick to me, any way, enough complaints and they have to do something and if they don't you go over their heads. Do you not have any no kill animal shelters in your area, reptile rescue groups, tortoise rescue groups? Any of them can help you even if it is in advice of how to go about shutting this guy down or making him higher his standard of care. There are so many things that can be done to try and help not only the animals he has now but those in the near future. It takes some work but you in the end would be helping more lives then just the couple you want to buy. Which, sorry again it to harsh, but buying them is taking the easy way out and not really helping the ones you aren't buying or those to come in their place.
I no it's hard to resist the buy to save mentality, but because people don't resist it, we still have puppy mills, kitten mills, pet stores selling sick puppies and kittens, heartless animal brokers and poor caring conditions in the housing of all of these animals.

I am quite familiar with puppy mills etc. I have been a vet tech for sometime now. Just trying to help something that's right in front of me. No, no resuce groups in the area that I know of (I have been asking around). And animal control doesn't seem to care all that much. It's kind of on the people. I am doing what I can.

---

In the past i had two reserved tables at the White plains ny, and Pottstown p.a. and the Hamburg p.a. Reptile shows for 8 or so years. I would sell what I bred. Poison dart frogs, bearded dragons, geckos, milksnakes, salamanders, uromastyx, etc... I displayed them in deli cups and 10 gallon aquariums. It may seem cramped but they are often comfortable that way. Also that is what I would ship them in. The reason I left the business after 20+ years is the customers. I realized no one loves them like I do. No one collected termites from dead trees to feed their frogs. No one would spend hours making fruitfly cultures. The animals were no more than a passing interest to most people. And so, many probably died due to neglect. People would come to my table and say things like, "what's the cheapest thing you got?".
Disgusted, I retired from something that I was very good at and loved so much. I miss it. But when people who live in apartments buy sulcatas or caimans and think they will be able to care for this animal properly...it's not ok. Sorry for the rant ;-)

Thank you for sharing a "sellers" side of the story. I think it's important to hear your side. We obviously can't hear this guys story whatever it may be...

No worries, rant away!! Glad to see someone who was selling that actually cares!!

 

[Vishnu2]

This is a tortoise forum, I get enough of the "other" stuff from having a teen daughter. I think if you had an issue with "Tom" you should of taken it up in PM. However, I would like to know what your plans are for the other animals? What's the final decision? I guess others have called AC before and they have found him to not be doing anything wrong.. Wow, just wow. I say go talk to the guy. Knowledge is power.

 

[rachamelia]

This is a tortoise forum, I get enough of the "other" stuff from having a teen daughter. I think if you had an issue with "Tom" you should of taken it up in PM. However, I would like to know what your plans are for the other animals? What's the final decision? I guess others have called AC before and they have found him to not be doing anything wrong.. Wow, just wow. I say go talk to the guy. Knowledge is power.

I asked him several times, he would not stop posting on MY thread.

I don't know yet what the end result will be...still working on it.

Our AC is awful here, for dogs/cats ... the whole lot. They are awful.

 

[reticguy76]

If you are worried about potential neglect and/or abuse, animal control or humane society is obligated by law to investigate and remove if they deem necessary. We see abuse and neglect cases all day and night in my emergency animal hospital (ive been here 15 years and have seen well into the 4 digits of cases). They have to, by law, investigate as soon as one person forms a writted or verbal complaint.
Granted, they are not motivated generally by non-furry animals, but are obligated just the same to all living animals deemed pets or potential pets

 

[rachamelia]

If you are worried about potential neglect and/or abuse, animal control or humane society is obligated by law to investigate and remove if they deem necessary. We see abuse and neglect cases all day and night in my emergency animal hospital (ive been here 15 years and have seen well into the 4 digits of cases). They have to, by law, investigate as soon as one person forms a writted or verbal complaint.
Granted, they are not motivated generally by non-furry animals, but are obligated just the same to all living animals deemed pets or potential pets

Thanks, I will def stay on them about this...these guys deserve a chance too...even without the fur

 

[reticguy76]

Some will even investigate abuse to wildlife (but those officers are few and far between). Animal abuse is animal abuse, be it to a dog, cat, ferret, hamster, tort, snake, wild prairie dog, whatever. No animal deserves to be abused and/or neglected. Its against the law. Plain and simple

 

[Jacqui]

My advise is first, give Animal Control one last chance, then move on to other means. Game and Parks perhaps. Complain to the folks running the flea market... check to see if they can legally have folks selling animals. Go to your local city or county board and pass an ordinance against selling them. Any reptile clubs in the area willing to help?

As for buying them, if it were me and I had the money, I'd be buying them. I for one worry about the animal in hand, not a possible animal in the future. Heck the guy may be dead tomorrow and never ever buy another animal, so should you feel good about knowing you left an animal today suffering?

Of course, we are not yet for sure he has treated them bad do we? Folks have made comments, but is there any real proof? Documentable proof or just hearsay?

 

[wellington]

Please don't take anyone's comments, or preaching as you called it as a personal attack. We are ALL very passionate about all animals well being. We hear a lot of complaints on here about what people have seen in the way of animal abuse. However, they did nothing about it, except complain on here about what they saw. As far as me, that is almost as bad as the abuser, to ignore and walk away, just to complain, but do nothing. I feel the first line of defense, is best done, right then and there, not later. Maybe, it is just in the way they post that it sounds like they did nothing, maybe. Your post kind a sounded the same way. Glad to here though, that it sounds like all the details were not entered, I get it. I don't think anyone was just trying to preach, I am sure it was all meant to help and suggest. I am sorry if you took any of my post the wrong way, never intended for you to. As for Tom, I am not trying to speak for him. However he is very passionate about animals. I think though, like everyone else, he means well. He can correct me if I am wrong. So, again, we are always trying to help, not condemn. Some of us just might not word it as good as others. Good luck in this fight. I hope you can get someone to help you, help the animals. keep us posted please, with whatever you do. You do have to do what makes you able to live with yourself. Your the one in the situation.

 

[Angi]

You have gotten some good advice here. Not much more I could add. I agree the you should continue contacting other agencys about the animals and I would also keep bugging A/C have your friend call them two. Maybe picket his stand too. I also agree that buying the animals is not a good idea, but kind of you to want to. You are probably a very kind and caring person.

 

[cknfrmr]

Will the vet you work for help you in your fight for the animals proper care and conditions or give you information on a different route to take to get them better display conditions for the animals?

 

[jason g.]

Remember that if he is selling at a flea market, those are show tanks and "carry away" cases. They may be raised and kept in great conditions.

Agreed I made this mistake once just recently. When I asked how they were kept the enclosures the lady had at home were empressive. She brought her little critters to her shop every day. It was a small pet store. All the reptiles she had were from people who said they wanted them and never returned. Different situation but if I hadn't asked I would of assumed she was mistreating them. I would of been wrong.
Already been said! I should read more before so quick to respond.
If he is saleing crocs.I thought that was illegal?they arent native to the USA are they?

 

[Madkins007]

Yeah, this is going to be a lot of repeat of previous comments.

1. IS it legal for him to be selling these animal locally? This is often tricky because different agencies have different rules, and 'occasional sales' often fall under different rules yet. The baby sullys, for example, fall under the federal 4" rule IF he is an actual seller and not a hobbyist in the eyes of the law. (Of course, enforcement for this is spotty as well.)

1.a. If it IS illegal, then you may need to find the right department to approach him. Sadly, most government departments are so understaffed or underfunded that they only go after 'profitable' targets.

1.b. If it is indeed illegal for him to do this and the conditions are bad even to the casual eye, try a local consumers advocacy program. Many local TV stations are looking for news like that to cover. ("Animals at risk, authorities not helping. More at 9!")

2. Heckling him or interfering with his customers can backfire on you. The management may throw you out, and he might be able to press charges for interfering with a legitimate (in the law's eyes) business. Besides- you cannot be there all the time.

3. Have you shared your concerns with the flea market's management? They have the power to ban him, pretty much for any reason they want. Your goal of course should be the welfare of the animals, but you can hint that his horrible cares reflect badly on the market (something like "I am surprised to see a vendor with these poor conditions at this wonderful market that I shop at so often and have such admiration for". Another tack might even be to play off the Salmonella risk.)

 

[NinjaTortoises]

In the past i had two reserved tables at the White plains ny, and Pottstown p.a. and the Hamburg p.a. Reptile shows for 8 or so years. I would sell what I bred. Poison dart frogs, bearded dragons, geckos, milksnakes, salamanders, uromastyx, etc... I displayed them in deli cups and 10 gallon aquariums. It may seem cramped but they are often comfortable that way. Also that is what I would ship them in. The reason I left the business after 20+ years is the customers. I realized no one loves them like I do. No one collected termites from dead trees to feed their frogs. No one would spend hours making fruitfly cultures. The animals were no more than a passing interest to most people. And so, many probably died due to neglect. People would come to my table and say things like, "what's the cheapest thing you got?".
Disgusted, I retired from something that I was very good at and loved so much. I miss it. But when people who live in apartments buy sulcatas or caimans and think they will be able to care for this animal properly...it's not ok. Sorry for the rant ;-)

Actually its a touching story :,) and a new perspective to look. But there will always be people who buy because theyre excited at the moment but when the feeling is gone then the animal they bought is pretty much screwed because it will either die of neglect or bad care :/

---

A good breeder of anything in my eyes, is one that will pass on a sale and making a buck for the sake of the animal. Just that bad gut feeling you get usually with the first words out of their ignorant mouths should, be enough to say, sorry I can't sell you this animal. Those people that give you that gut feeling, no nothing about keeping the animal let alone loving it. It's just something cool or cute and neither with these kind of people last long. That was actually the easiest part of selling my puppies when I was a breeder. I had no problem telling them I couldn't sell them one of my puppies and no problem telling them why!

If only i had the nads to do that haha, but im working on it!

---

Even though it offended you, my point still stands.

... and so does my question.

If these two don't sell and eventually die from poor care, the man will lose his money and not buy any more. If you buy these two, out of pity or whatever, he will get more than two more and all of these will suffer the same fate. I have seen this many times. Stick around long enough and you will too. Barb's advice of talking to the man is about the best you can do. This usually fails, but every once in a while a person can be reached. It's worth a try.

It might sound cruel but Tom has a point, if you starve him he will see that he cant sell sulcatas easily and stop selling sulcatas, he probably paid half of what he is selling them for and wants to sell them for double, another thing is he might lower the price little by little until they sell but he would still see they're bad for his sales