Substrate for baby tortoise question

[PabloBC]

I live in Mexico and I'm looking forward to buying a baby tortoise. I bought a couple of bags of what I think is Orchid bark, but after opening one I found it to be much darker than what I've seen on several pictures. Looks like theres some kind of dirt coating the pieces (they don't get any lighter by rinsing the pieces though) and some pieces are really soft and moist which I can pull apart with my bare hands.
Will this substrate harm my tortoise? I will call the manufacturer on what exactly are the ingredients, since the bag doesn't specify.

 

[Tom]

We can only guess, but it looks okay to me. Are the ingredients listed on the bag?

 

[wellington]

I agree with what Tom said.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Colour looks fine to me, but could be worth checking with the manufacturer, especially if there’s no details on the bag, if it’s primarily used as a potting media there could be things added that you don’t want in there

 

[PabloBC]

We can only guess, but it looks okay to me. Are the ingredients listed on the bag?

They aren't, though some retailers list it as having pine bark. It's a bit confusing since pine is a common name for some kinds of fir.
Is there a way to know if its pine or fir? I haven't gotten a response from the manufacturer yet.
I'm also not sure if it having a few wood pieces or being moist out of the bag will cause problems.
I just ordered some coco coir blocks instead to avoid any problems. I might need to start growing some orchids so the bark doesn't go to waste. Do tortoises like to eat them?

 

[Tom]

They aren't, though some retailers list it as having pine bark. It's a bit confusing since pine is a common name for some kinds of fir.
Is there a way to know if its pine or fir? I haven't gotten a response from the manufacturer yet.
I'm also not sure if it having a few wood pieces or being moist out of the bag will cause problems.
I just ordered some coco coir blocks instead to avoid any problems. I might need to start growing some orchids so the bark doesn't go to waste. Do tortoises like to eat them?

I'm no orchid expert, but I think they are toxic, aren't they?

 

[PabloBC]

I think only some of them are. I've seen a few folks feed orchid flowers with no issue.

 

[Guillermo Limon]

I live in Mexico and I'm looking forward to buying a baby tortoise. I bought a couple of bags of what I think is Orchid bark, but after opening one I found it to be much darker than what I've seen on several pictures. Looks like theres some kind of dirt coating the pieces (they don't get any lighter by rinsing the pieces though) and some pieces are really soft and moist which I can pull apart with my bare hands.
Will this substrate harm my tortoise? I will call the manufacturer on what exactly are the ingredients, since the bag doesn't specify.
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Hi, Pablo, I am also in Mexico and have bred local desert tortoises for a while. If you are looking to buy a desert species (Sulcata, leopard, Mediterranean, etc.), sand is a much better substrate, it offers more traction both for moving and for digging. If you buy river sand, it must absolutely be cement free.

 

[Tom]

Hi, Pablo, I am also in Mexico and have bred local desert tortoises for a while. If you are looking to buy a desert species (Sulcata, leopard, Mediterranean, etc.), sand is a much better substrate, it offers more traction both for moving and for digging. If you buy river sand, it must absolutely be cement free.

This is TERRIBLE advice. Sand causes sand impactions as it is incidentally ingested over time. It is also a potential skin and eye irritant.

Sand should never be used for tortoise substrate.

 

[EppsDynasty]

sand is a much better substrate

I sincerely hope you make changes instead of use the same old excuse "well I've been doing this for years" Sand is a death sentence the only question is are you going to be honest with yourself or continue to put innocent lives at risk of suffering to death. Just an FYI .... here on the forum there has been many discussions on "sand" it's differences and threats (like impaction). And 'Cement' is actually multiple substances like Lye, Fly Ash, Limestone, Clay, Sand and a bunch of other things heated and ground into a powder. Cement is not a natural singular material or substance. For any tortoises in your care I sincerely hope you start to do some serious research and educate yourself on proper husbandry and techniques. It is very common to make the mistakes you are making, it is not very common though for these people to be honest with themselves and make changes.... I hope you are not one of these.

 

[PabloBC]

Hi, Pablo, I am also in Mexico and have bred local desert tortoises for a while. If you are looking to buy a desert species (Sulcata, leopard, Mediterranean, etc.), sand is a much better substrate, it offers more traction both for moving and for digging. If you buy river sand, it must absolutely be cement free.

Which part of Mexico are you from?
I've read enough posts on this forum to know many people consider sand a huge impaction risk. The natural substrate where I live has a lot of sand since it's a desertic climate, but I would rather use something less risky like coco coir during the first few years I have the tortoise indoors.

 

[Guillermo Limon]

I sincerely hope you make changes instead of use the same old excuse "well I've been doing this for years" Sand is a death sentence the only question is are you going to be honest with yourself or continue to put innocent lives at risk of suffering to death. Just an FYI .... here on the forum there has been many discussions on "sand" it's differences and threats (like impaction). And 'Cement' is actually multiple substances like Lye, Fly Ash, Limestone, Clay, Sand and a bunch of other things heated and ground into a powder. Cement is not a natural singular material or substance. For any tortoises in your care I sincerely hope you start to do some serious research and educate yourself on proper husbandry and techniques. It is very common to make the mistakes you are making, it is not very common though for these people to be honest with themselves and make changes.... I hope you are not one of these.

Thanks for your advice. By cement I mean additive free, completely natural sand. I have read about impaction and never had an issue. I have also experimented with mixtures of top soil and sand. Tortoises do need traction and digging, bark does not offer much of either. But of course I am open to rectifying any ill practice. One thing I didn't mention is that my tortoises spend a good amount of time grazing, producing very fibrous grass feces. If my comment is misleading, I can delete it, no problem, and I apologize. I attach pictures of the terrarium with a mix of top soil and sand, and the grazing tortoises.

 

[Guillermo Limon]

This is TERRIBLE advice. Sand causes sand impactions as it is incidentally ingested over time. It is also a potential skin and eye irritant.

Sand should never be used for tortoise substrate.

Hi Tom, please read my reply to EpsDynasty below, I need to rectify my practice.

 

[Guillermo Limon]

Which part of Mexico are you from?
I've read enough posts on this forum to know many people consider sand a huge impaction risk. The natural substrate where I live has a lot of sand since it's a desertic climate, but I would rather use something less risky like coco coir during the first few years I have the tortoise indoors.

Hi Pablo, I am in Guadalajara. Please read my reply to EpsDynasty (with some pics), it looks like I need to rectify my practice, although my oldest hatchlings are 25 years old and healthy. They were released into the grass backyard at around 6 years old, though, going through winter brumation, grazing a lot and breeding successfully. Species is Gopherus berlandieri. The comment on cement is because construction sand in Mexico often times comes with traces of concrete cement (so I suggested natural sand), but then again, it is clear from the replies that sand must be avoided completely. Some kind of traction and digging substrate is necessary, in my opinion. Since I never used bark I do not know if it offers such trait. Good luck with your project.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom, please read my reply to EpsDynasty below, I need to rectify my practice.

Outdoors, "substrate" is not needed. You can just use the ground that is out there. For any sort of enclosure, sand does not offer traction that is better than bark, and they can dig in orchid bark as much as they want. Go walk on the sand on the beach, and then go walk on garden mulch. The mulch is much easier to walk on.

There is no way to know what composted material store bought sol is made of. It could be oleander or grass clippings sprayed with insecticides or other lawn toxins. They also add in all sorts of weird stuff to get the right consistency for plant roots, but these are not necessarily things you want a tortoise living on or in.

Soil and sand were used extensively by almost everyone in years passed, but we've learned better, safer alternatives with much trial and error.

All of this and much more is explained in this thread. I hope you find some useful tid bits in here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Guillermo Limon]

---

Outdoors, "substrate" is not needed. You can just use the ground that is out there. For any sort of enclosure, sand does not offer traction that is better than bark, and they can dig in orchid bark as much as they want. Go walk on the sand on the beach, and then go walk on garden mulch. The mulch is much easier to walk on.

There is no way to know what composted material store bought sol is made of. It could be oleander or grass clippings sprayed with insecticides or other lawn toxins. They also add in all sorts of weird stuff to get the right consistency for plant roots, but these are not necessarily things you want a tortoise living on or in.

Soil and sand were used extensively by almost everyone in years passed, but we've learned better, safer alternatives with much trial and error.

All of this and much more is explained in this thread. I hope you find some useful tid bits in here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you very much, Tom

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Guillermo Limon ....
Your attitude is fantastic, being open is best when learning new things. We don't mean to be rude in any way just honest and it sounds like you are open to learning, your Torts will greatly appreciate this.