Sulcata Don't Hibernate?

[deimos2005]

I've been reading forum after forum and web page after web page about sulcata's. I think the common belief that these torts NEVER hibernate could be incorrect.

Our 4 year old sulcata male started digging a burrow in October when the heat began to break. At 6 ft deep it takes an abrupt turn to the left, so i'm not sure how deep it really is.

We live in southern Arizona. Winter kinda arrived early this year. On Nov 16th we had a cold weather front move in and it got cold (for AZ). The tort went down into his burrow.

Weeks passed by and he didn't surface. We started to worry. We looked for other tunnel exits in our yard and the neighbors. Nothing!

We placed lights and food at his entrance. Nothing!

We gave up. Stopped watering his grass patch. But left the now dry grape leaves at the top of his burrow.

In AZ there has been unseasonably warm weather this year. It has been in the upper 80's for more than a week, while the rest of the nation froze. (Typical of AZ to have opposite weather)

Yesterday I was in the backyard and hear rustling near his burrow. He was there eating the dry grape leaves. He wasn't famished or sick looking. In fact, my wife stated that he looked bigger than he was before.

As previously stated, i'm not convinced that these torts can't hibernate after watching our sulcata sleep from mid November to mid February in a very deep burrow.

 

[ascott]

Yes, they CAN brumate---however, this species is encouraged to remain awake and warm during the winter months....especially if the tort is going to be housed in wet conditions.....some will say that letting the tort brumate will end up in death....now, in ALOT of the parts of the United States this will be absolutely true....

You live in a state that is relatively fair in temps....now, this does not mean you will not have some freezing nights...but not usual....if the tort has dug down below freeze level (and I find this awesome, I have here one of the CDTs that has dug his own natural burrow...down about 6+ feet and also turns to the left , again, not a sulcata but funny the same pattern--alot say they go to the right???) and is not subject to flooding---I personally do not see the harm (now, lots of folks will jump on me for that but I am sharing my thoughts on your particular situation and not as a blanket statement....now, I would wonder if this next winter you offered a heated warm dry house/hut if the tort would opt to remain awake and use that hut or if the tort would rather choose the burrow and hunker down????

 

[T33's Torts]

Ditto to the above comment. Thats a BIG burrow! Can we see pictures of this tort and his tunnel?

 

[AZtortMom]

I have a friend who had a Sully tort who use to burmate in her closet every winter here in AZ. Like clock work, Frank would find his spot in Nov in the closet and go to sleep. She would keep an eye on him. About Late February early March Frank would come rumbling out of the closet. She had Frank for many years until someone stole him. He was very loved and well taken care of.

I never met Frank and I'm sure Frank was the exception not the rule when it comes to Sullies.

 

[bouaboua]

Great!!!!!!


Something new to learn everyday here in the forum.

 

[Tom]

This is not brumation or hibernation. This is a tortoise that was lucky to survive inappropriate conditions for its species. These are tropical tortoises. Temperatures where they come from rarely have a daily high below 90 and most of the year the daily high is closer to 100. Nights seldom drop below the mid 60's at the "coldest" time of year for them, but down in their burrows the temp probably remains near 80 overnight, based on observations of MY burrows during our summer weather, which simulates their winter weather at the coldest part of their year. When its 90+ everyday here with 60-65 degree nights, my burrows stay 79-81 all day and every night. When daily high and lows start dropping in the fall, my burrow temps plummet and usually settle around 50 in mid winter. To keep a tropical tortoise at 50 degrees in a damp burrow for months at a time is not a good policy. Great for a DT. Not "great" for a tropical tortoise.

So yes, some percentage of sulcatas can survive this routine in AZ, but some of them don't. Nobody gets on the internet, joins a tortoise forum and tells people how their tropical species of tortoise went down a big hole in fall and never came back up. Outside of certain areas AZ, the survive rate drops significantly too, so it is not a practice to be encouraged. Lower temps are not automatically deadly to sulcatas, but please don't make the case that it is somehow okay, or good for them. I'm glad you got lucky and your tortoise survived. Now please take better care of him and give him captive conditions that are appropriate for his species. I let mine burrow all summer long, but I catch them above ground when the cooler weather starts to come in fall and the ground temps start to plummet, I close off their burrows, and they sleep in their heated above ground boxes.

People who test the unnatural limits of what an individual can survive will eventually discover that limit.

...and don't forget that we really didn't have a "normal" winter out west here. We got almost no rain and record breaking high temps all winter long.

 

[bouaboua]

This is not brumation or hibernation. This is a tortoise that was lucky to survive inappropriate conditions for its species. These are tropical tortoises. Temperatures where they come from rarely have a daily high below 90 and most of the year the daily high is closer to 100. Nights seldom drop below the mid 60's at the "coldest" time of year for them, but down in their burrows the temp probably remains near 80 overnight, based on observations of MY burrows during our summer weather, which simulates their winter weather at the coldest part of their year. When its 90+ everyday here with 60-65 degree nights, my burrows stay 79-81 all day and every night. When daily high and lows start dropping in the fall, my burrow temps plummet and usually settle around 50 in mid winter. To keep a tropical tortoise at 50 degrees in a damp burrow for months at a time is not a good policy. Great for a DT. Not "great" for a tropical tortoise.

So yes, some percentage of sulcatas can survive this routine in AZ, but some of them don't. Nobody gets on the internet, joins a tortoise forum and tells people how their tropical species of tortoise went down a big hole in fall and never came back up. Outside of certain areas AZ, the survive rate drops significantly too, so it is not a practice to be encouraged. Lower temps are not automatically deadly to sulcatas, but please don't make the case that it is somehow okay, or good for them. I'm glad you got lucky and your tortoise survived. Now please take better care of him and give him captive conditions that are appropriate for his species. I let mine burrow all summer long, but I catch them above ground when the cooler weather starts to come in fall and the ground temps start to plummet, I close off their burrows, and they sleep in their heated above ground boxes.

People who test the unnatural limits of what an individual can survive will eventually discover that limit.

...and don't forget that we really didn't have a "normal" winter out west here. We got almost no rain and record breaking high temps all winter long.

Thank you Tom for clarification.! ! ! ! ! !

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

To help clarify Tom's point, I've been established in having an argument with a very well respected sulcata keeper in regard to sulcata staying out at night in 50°f temps. My argument was of the stand, could they survive? Sure. Could they thrive? Not likely.
I could lay naked out at night in those temps,(my wife might recommend it some nights) and survive. But in the long run would I thrive? Not likely. And I'm a mammal that produces my own heat.
Our goal as keepers should always be to provide optimal conditions for our charges, not merely keeping them from passing.
“Stepping down from soapbox"

 

[deimos2005]

In southern Arizona, our low temperature is within about 10 degrees F of Timbuktu (according to Wikipedia) pretty much year round. In general, compared to places such as the major population areas in California, our conditions are actually MUCH closer in comparison to their natural habitat. We tend to have "cold snaps" for one week in AZ. During those times we measure the temperature inside our insulated enclosure and it never dips below 60F due to our heating blanket.

Funny thing though, since he dug his hole, he doesn't even bother sitting on his heating blanket. He just crawls down into the hole.

Well I reached out to several sources (this being one them). A friend of ours down the street has owned ASTs for more than 20 years in Arizona. He found it difficult to bring his 120 lb tortoise in doors for MANY reasons (bulk, weight, strength of the animal, smell of fecal matter, amount of fecal matter). And in this area, he is not the only one!

It seems like southern AZ might be an ideal location for these beasts. Quite a few other owners in the area report letting their torts dig holes and then they spend quite a lot of time in them during this time of year. The typical method is to cover the hole with a dog house or structure and place some kind of heating element in the structure. The animals will rarely use the heating element because they tend to prefer their burrow.

Do they thrive? Well my friends 100+ lb tortoise seems to believe so. Our tort does not have pyramiding and is rapidly gaining weight. He eats primarily grass and grape leaves from the vine in our backyard. The mysterious "fungus in the grass" that everyone worries about doesn't cause him any problems, nor our friends tortoise, or other owners in the area. The breeder in our area used the same techniques as well.

This does seem to be "best practice" for southern AZ and is probably only practical here at lower than 2000 ft. I can't see these torts thriving along the coast in Cailfornia or in the northern valley. El Centro or Yuma might be ideal conditions.

Thanks for the help everyone. Good luck with your torts.

 

[ascott]

Well...it sounds as though you have a system that works for both tort and you...truly there is no ONE WAY that works for every situation....

 

[Tom]

In southern Arizona, our low temperature is within about 10 degrees F of Timbuktu (according to Wikipedia) pretty much year round.

This is not accurate. While they may have an occasional cold spell and see night temps in the 50s in some places over in African sulcata territory, they also typically get up to 95-100 almost all year. So when Southern AZ has those occasional spells where the temps dip near or below freezing, the Sahel does not. Because they then warm up so much the next day, where AZ might stay in the 60's to low 70's on a chilly winter day, the Sahel warms up into the 90's. This will make a big difference in the overnight burrow temps deep underground.

I am not disputing whether or not sulcatas can survive over winter in AZ burrows. I know that they can. Everyone knows that they can. I am disputing whether or not it is GOOD for them. I say it is not. Cowboy Ken's example demonstrates this well. As far as other parts of the country, every person must make a strategy that works for them. Most people use heated sheds or boxes of some sort.

If you wish to continue testing your tortoises ability to survive temperatures that they are not equipped to deal with, that is your prerogative. I, however, will not stand by while you try to convince others that they are hibernators, or that this is perfectly fine. When we have a normal cold winter, your tortoise might not fare as well as it did this year. I don't want you to feel picked on, but I'm typing this soon after a friend of mine followed advice like what you have been told. He too thought his 6 year old 50 pound male would just dig down and wait out the cold winter weather. He found his tortoise dead in its unheated shelter in December of last year. He wishes he had listened to me...

 

[diamondbp]

I agree with Ken and Tom. Knowing the extremes that a species may be able to handle doesn't give us the right to allow them to experience these extremes.

My Brother kept his sulcatas outside year round in Louisiana for several years and they would overwinter in their burrows with no heat. Luckily for him those years were relatively dry winters. Well the year that I ended up getting a few from my brother the newly aquired sulcatas dug a 7 foot deep burrow in the middle of my yard. I decided to block off the burrow when winter came and give them a heated shed to lock them up at night. Lucky for them that that was my decision because the first year I had them we had the wettest winter in 20 years and their burrow stayed flooded with ice cold water which would have surely killed them. There is no use in taking a chance if you can help it.

Another recent example was a silly mistake I made recently. Because I kept my baby pardalis in my shed(house if off limits thanks to my lovely beautiful wife ) I have 10 extra heat lamps and two extra heated pads that I can either hook up to aid in heat or leave off. Well a few weeks back it got down into the twenties in my shed and I blocked off half of the leopards tub (long christmas tree tub) and focused the heat lamps on the half with the babies in it. Well don't you know that one of the babies literally dug UNDER the large blockade to get to the FREEZING COLD side.
So the next morning when I went to soak and feed them I panicked because I couldn't find one of the babies. And I thought to myself "there is no way that little booger dug down beneath those large bricks to reach the other side" and sure enough she did . When I found her she was ICE COLD and STIFF AS A BOARD with her limbs fully extended and mouth wide open but still had normal looking eyes(not dried up). I could have swore she was dead. I was so pissed at myself. She didn't move a lick for over 30 minutes. So I went in my yard to pick some clover and dandelion thinking she was dead and when I came back I went to move her "dead" body out of the enclosure her front leg BARELY moved.The rest of her body was still totally stiff.
I ended up having to run back inside to help with the kids and I figured that even though she was moving a itty bitty bit that she was doomed. Well two hours later I finally got free to run back outside to my shed and she was balled up in her normal spot just as every other day. The next day I gave her a nice long warm soak while I watched her and she pooped twice and looked totally normal. She has been eating like a champ for over 3 weeks now and has new growth. I....AM...RREALLY...REALLY....LUCKY that I didn't lose her. She is a little champ but I'm still keeping a close eye on her. Did I mention how lucky I am??

Moral of the story >>> Just because she miraculously survived those crazy cold temperatures does not give me the right to "allow" that to happen again in the future. I should (and will) take more(better) precautions to provide ideal conditions throughout the year and to leave absolutely nothing to chance.