Sulcata overheated while soaking?

[alysciaingram]

Has anyone ever overheated their tort while in water? I read on this forum multiple times to not let the water get too cold while soaking my tort. So today I put my 4 month old in his bath like usual, except under his lamp in order to stay warm. He urinated and defecated while I prepared his mazuri and greens mix, did his usual "let me out dance", and when I saw his water was dirty I placed him down on his substrate while I cleaned out the water. I put a kitchen timer on for soaks, and only eleven minutes had passed. When I returned he was foaming at the mouth profusely and gasping, his neck area was also swollen looking. He is responsive, but was somewhat sluggish when I first tried to help him. I placed him in the cool section of his tank, turned his lamp off, and placed a cool, wet paper towel over him and left the lid open to rapidly cool the enclosure. He laid under the paper towel for approximately 30 minutes while in his shell. After that he went into his humid hide and slept for a few hours. I went to check on him after reading on the forum that it was most likely a heat stroke, that they are fatal, and he would probably die within a few hours if he did. I woke him up in order to assess if he was alert and not deceased. He walked around and paced his enclosure for a bit, smelled his food and passed it up, and went back to bed.

If anyone knows, what should I expect from him for the next few weeks? I have a vet appointment for my other tort in a week and a half to do fecals and a general visit since she is new and in quarantine before I introduce her to my other two tortoises. I am going to bring him along on the visit now after today, but don't know if I should just pay the extra money in order to get him assessed as an emergency by the vet sooner rather than later?

Sorry to make a stereotypical "HELP" post, but I would just appreciate any advice in order to best care for my little one. I thought I was doing the right thing today and I feel just terrible about it. :/

 

[EricIvins]

Sounds more like the animal was drowning than overheating.......





I still don't understand why anyone would want to force soak a Tortoise anymore...

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Sounds more like the animal was drowning than overheating.......

I still don't understand why anyone would want to force soak a Tortoise anymore...

Cause that's what everyone is doing and recommend to do?

Please share your thought if you have different opinion and reason of doing that.

 

[alysciaingram]

The animal was not drowning, the proper amount of water was in the bowl. I would have noticed when I placed the animal in the soak bowl if it was too high. He comfortably sat in the water while I gathered my hay and Mazuri. I am not that negligent.

And I force soaks because my vet even recommends it until the tortoise is at least 7 inches. She has her own heard of tortoises, and I value her opinion, as she spent a lot of time and money getting her degree.

 

[EricIvins]

Well, I have experience with Chelonians that are near drowning and what you described is exactly how they look/act. What is the "proper" amount of water? A Tortoise can drown in a 1/4" of water if your not paying attention to them.....


Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...

 

[Tom]

Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...

This is NOT true, and its BAD advice. I've called you out many times on this. Not everyone lives in a humid area with lots of rainfall and water everywhere. Not everyone, especially noobs, have an appropriate water source and their tortoises would rather not drink than risk drowning or using a water source they are not comfortable with for whatever reason.

Not soaking may work for YOU, in YOUR area, with YOUR combination of husbandry techniques, but it is not going to work for everyone, everywhere. Someone with your professed level of experience should understand this. A lot of reptiles die of dehydration out here in the dry West. A simple soak once in a while could have saved many of them.



To the OP: 1. This is why thermometers and temp guns are a necessity. What was the temp of the water? What was the temp in the enclosure?

2. It is a mistake to assume that a vet has even the slightest idea what they are talking about based on the two criterion you mentioned. Many supposed "reptile" vets do not know what they are doing and have caused great harm or death. Your vet may be a good one, but I know plenty of vets and vet techs that spent a lot of time and money getting their degrees, have their own reptiles, and still have no clue about how to simply raise a healthy reptile. Sad but true.

 

[alysciaingram]

The water never exceeds past his plastron. Most of the time he relaxes and enjoys his soaks. He never drinks from his water dish, and I don't believe that any living animal does not need water. I also did the dry method with my older sulcata, only offering water in her enclosure and she is pyramided badly. Only now that I have been soaking her also has she begun to smooth out.

I hope you're not taking offense to what I am saying. You're coming off as crass and offended. I know the animal was not drowning. There is no possible way unless he dunked his head under and held it there without realizing he needed to resurface. Is that possible?

---

Tom, the temperature in the water I'm unsure of, but it was baby warm temp, nothing unusual, and I soak my little ones daily. This has never happened before. The temperature where I placed my tort was registered at 86. I believe the water got too hot and over heated him, but every thread is "I left my sulcata out in the sun too long and they were foamin". I don't know if it's even possible or if it ingested something before the soak and I didn't realize it was foaming until after when he was placed out of the water? I feel crazy.. I really do.

I have one of those radar temp guns. I will buy a probe tomorrow to more accurately temp. Thanks.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

I really think your water level is too low if it doesn't even exceed his plastron...

I read a lot of things here, and that's how Eric replies to everythings. I don't think he feels offended and neither should we.

 

[alysciaingram]

Ironically enough I was worried that by placing too much water in his soak would drown or injure him.

On the bright side I think I cooled him off it time. He's alert and active today. He usually goes out into the enclosure to graze but I'm going to leave him in his tank in order to keep an eye on anything unusual. Thanks for the replies.

Tom, you had a good influence on my choice of vet. I wrote down a care list and pretty much interviewed them before choosing one for my animals. I also bought my temp probe today and am going to be more diligent about assessing my temps before hand to prevent this from happening again. I also scanned the enclosure for anything that I may have over looked even though I was researched everything before it went in the ground. I don't think it was anything toxic unless it was a bug.

Anyone else have any guesses? Or is overheating the culprit.

 

[Millerlite]

I would say be was not drowning tortoises even young ones are smart enough to not drown themselves. He might if hot a little hot with the combination of the light and warm water. As long as he's alright now, learn from it. I wouldn't put the dish under the light just do it away from heat sources, the water will cool but that takes more the. 10-15 mins. Even if it feels cool it's probably not as cool as you think.

Also soaking is still a practice and I haven't heard of it being old school or not done anymore. With young animals I soak them an actually dont have a water dish in the enclosure. For the first few months. This is because I rather regulate and know he goes into the water, some babies won't ever touch the water. As far as a tortoises drowing with the water so low.. Like I said idk about that. I know he said a tortoise can drown without watching him soak, but if you have a water dish in your enclosure what stops him from drowing when your not watching? It sounds like it got a little. Warm, I would keep up on the soaks personally just 10 mins works enough for the tortoises to drink and warm up, also helps trigger eatin and popping.

 

[EricIvins]

Force soaking is not necessary! Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry. I also have an education, along with experience keeping a large collection of Turtles/Tortoises. What I post comes from direct knowledge and experience. I'm sure many will back up what I'm saying, but take it for what it is worth to you...

This is NOT true, and its BAD advice. I've called you out many times on this. Not everyone lives in a humid area with lots of rainfall and water everywhere. Not everyone, especially noobs, have an appropriate water source and their tortoises would rather not drink than risk drowning or using a water source they are not comfortable with for whatever reason.

Not soaking may work for YOU, in YOUR area, with YOUR combination of husbandry techniques, but it is not going to work for everyone, everywhere. Someone with your professed level of experience should understand this. A lot of reptiles die of dehydration out here in the dry West. A simple soak once in a while could have saved many of them.



To the OP: 1. This is why thermometers and temp guns are a necessity. What was the temp of the water? What was the temp in the enclosure?

2. It is a mistake to assume that a vet has even the slightest idea what they are talking about based on the two criterion you mentioned. Many supposed "reptile" vets do not know what they are doing and have caused great harm or death. Your vet may be a good one, but I know plenty of vets and vet techs that spent a lot of time and money getting their degrees, have their own reptiles, and still have no clue about how to simply raise a healthy reptile. Sad but true.

So you're telling me that without proper husbandry, these animals will shrivel up and pyramid? I'll call BS on that any day.....

Again, proper husbandry means access to water at all times, and A PROPER HUMIDITY GRADIENT!!! THIS IS PROPER HUSBANDRY!! It doesn't matter whether you are in Florida, California, or Mars! So you've called me out on what? Something you preach about every day on this forum?

Anyway, the fact of the matter is the Tortoises know what water is, and how to utilize it is an enclosure. They are not stupid, and they've been around longer than we have. However, a hatchling should never have access to more than a 1/4" of water. That is plenty deep enough for the animal to drink and/or soak if it feels the need. And yes, I have had hatchlings drown in water just a 1/2" deep.....

 

[wellington]

Erica, I think if your way works for you, that's great. I only think that if you are going to tell members, specially new ones that they don't need to soak their tortoise, you should give all the details of exactly how you raise then, house them, and the relative humidity that is not only in your enclosures, but where you live. When exact details are not given, some will think they can do whatever it is their doing and stop the soaks. That could be dangerous for the tort. Soaking is a simple, very little time consumer of a safety net. I don't think it should be told to anyone that you don't need to soak, unless you know their exact husbandry and location, or you give the details as I stated above. As for me, well you all probably know I am probably Toms number one fan, so i will stick with his way and i will pass it on until my last breath. Now that said, please don't let this get into a heated name calling debate.
To the OP, it sounds to me like over heating. I soak my leopard in the bathroom sink. I clean it first, without any chemicals and when the water gets too cold, I release the drain and refill. What's nice, poop and pee down the drain.
Thanks in advance guys for not crossing the line

 

[LeoCraze]

Who is Erica?!! I'm pretty sure it's Eric...

Soaking is not absolutely necessary. True. The biggest downside is that your tortoise might drown. Also True. These are all valid points.

What we can all agree on is that proper hydration is necessary, especially in a foreign, captive and artificial environment. However, what we have to take into consideration is that achieving the proper hydration and humidity gradient via the enclosure is difficult for n00bs, and soaking is a lot easier. Of course, you have to deal with the consequences if you don't do it properly.

I soak mine, but I also keep an eye on them, plus I place an above water-line platform with gradient slope, sort of like the ones you have for turtles. This achieves a couple of things. Primarily, I make sure that they are hydrated, forced or not. But it also ensures that they poop mostly outside of their sleeping quarters and reduces the maintenance time on my part. And, this cleans them, which is of course not necessary, but I like to keep mine clean.

Anyways, at the end of the day, it boils down to what works for you and what you have to show for it. So, let's see what tortoises Eric raised from hatchlings using his method and what Tom has to show for his method.

 

[wellington]

Who is Erica?!! I'm pretty sure it's Eric...

OOPS, either my ipad did it or I did, not sure. Sorry Eric

 

[LeoCraze]

Eric, this is probably a typo, because it's not BS. Without "proper husbandry" the animals will not only shrivel up and pyramid, but they will die. I think you meant "soaking" rather than "proper husbandry".

So you're telling me that without proper husbandry, these animals will shrivel up and pyramid? I'll call BS on that any day.....

 

[Yellow Turtle]

I think I've seen Eric's turtles, but I don't remember seeing his torts. Of course, I'd love to see them all, including the enclosure of course.

 

[Millerlite]

I stop soaking when my guys get a little older, and I know my guys use the water dishes I see them in there all the time. But when I have hartcings I tend to soak them just so I know they get water, some species are stubborn and water will be in the enclosure but they won't ever see or touch it.

 

[Jacqui]

Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry.

Ahhh but Eric, doing it your way means more work, more forethought, then just forcing the tortoise into a soak when the human feels it's the right time and for as long as the human thinks is needed.

---

Main things here is how is the little guy doing? Is he showing any problems at all?

 

[EricIvins]

Proper hydration is as simple as leaving a ample water source in with the animal and letting it choose when/when not to use it, along with a humidity gradient. It boils down to giving the animals options along with proper husbandry.

Ahhh but Eric, doing it your way means more work, more forethought, then just forcing the tortoise into a soak when the human feels it's the right time and for as long as the human thinks is needed.

---

Main things here is how is the little guy doing? Is he showing any problems at all?

---

Yay! Someone gets it...

 

[alysciaingram]

My tort is doing well. He was still a little lethargic this morning so he went to the vet today. The vet advised not to put him under his lamp during soakings, and to not do as many per week (she said 4 times a week was sufficient for him) but he has been eating and grazing both yesterday and today, sunning for a little bit today, and has been slowly doing his normal routine.


He's a little camera shy but is doing okay. No runny nose or watery eyes. Making bowel movements, and the vet said I cooled him off quickly enough, now just to make sure he is watched more carefully in the next few weeks to prevent it from happening again because he's more susceptible.

Thanks for the responses.