Sulcata Pair... a pair, I know :(

[FoldintheCheese]

I intervened to rescue two sulcatas in poor conditions. I know pairs are not a good idea. We're keeping one, but the second one I am rehoming. I've been calling him(?) "BB" for "Big and Bossy." They are both too young to sex from what I've read, but I think BB is a boy b/c he has a longer tail and moves it to the side.

They leave each other alone 95% of the day, but BB doesn't hesitate to climb over, wedge in front of, wedge next to the other one, and he mounts the other one 1-3x a day. BB soaks more, eats more, and basks more with the other one avoiding them or sitting still stopping what they were doing. Same age, but clearly BB has been eating more for a while. That said, it's been 2 days and they both seem hydrated, eating, and pooping, so not all bad.

It's a temporary situation, but I'm looking at probably 2-4wks before BB moves on. I can cut some wood and split the habitat in half, but they would each have 1/2 the space to roam. I know pairs aren't good. Which is better-- sharing a bigger space (24x48" for 2 6" sulcatas) or private and small (2x2' per 6" sulcata)? I can try it and see how it goes, but they've already been through so much already. I don't know if the smaller space would be more distressing.

 

[Markw84]

Unfortunately you are in a tough position. 4x2 is nowhere big enough for one 6" sulcata. At that size a sulcata needs at least an 8x3 or 8x4 enclosure as a minimum. Since you are intending to keep one, you need to find a way to provide a lot more room for it. This time of year where you are you could make a large enough pen outdoors much easier and cheaper and use the 4x2 for sleeping at night only. Not ideal for 6" sulcata, but better than the limited room of a 4x2 enclosure if that's all you can do indoors. They need more room absolutely as soon as possible as you are trying to rehab them.

 

[wellington]

I agree with Mark. Rescuing them and putting them in a bad situation isn't rescuing them! You need to rehome one now and do much better for the one you keep. If you can't, rehome both.

 

[FoldintheCheese]

Unfortunately you are in a tough position. 4x2 is nowhere big enough for one 6" sulcata. At that size a sulcata needs at least an 8x3 or 8x4 enclosure as a minimum. Since you are intending to keep one, you need to find a way to provide a lot more room for it. This time of year where you are you could make a large enough pen outdoors much easier and cheaper and use the 4x2 for sleeping at night only. Not ideal for 6" sulcata, but better than the limited room of a 4x2 enclosure if that's all you can do indoors. They need more room absolutely as soon as possible as you are trying to rehab them.

One is 5" and one is 6" (BB). I was told the 2x4 (it's slightly bigger but definitely not 8x3) would be big enough for some months for the 5" until he/she moves outside. I saw a post from
@Tom that says 4x8 that lasts until they are 8-10in. They will be moved outside completely well before they reach that size unless what I found online about growth rates is wrong. I can definitely do a pen outside. There were some animal hospital sites saying the extreme heat we get here was not safe for this age, so that's why I started inside to begin with. Going outside for part of the day is doable as well, though, and might be a way to be safe with the heat. It was 110+ a few days last week.

In terms of rehoming, all the shelters are overrun here, and the rescue in Houston can't meet for 2 weeks, so I'm stuck. There's a veterinarian moving to Austin interested in adopting, but she won't be here for 4 weeks. There are others interested in rehoming sooner, but no one prepared or experienced, which makes me nervous. Not that I am experienced (clearly)

To that end, I haven't seen a kind of guide or book people agree on for in-depth information that people can use to figure out their unique situations, and I've seen a very wide range of what is recommended for all kinds of things by vets, zookeepers, people who have been raising them for years. What one animal hospital will say is good someone on this forum will say is terrible. I would think a guide written by a vet would be the gold standard, but that hasn't been the case. Is there a golden book on sulcatas that people agree on?

To be clear, my plan was this...
1, Get them the heck out of that small aquarium into a clean space with food and clean water and lamps for light and warmth.
2, Rehome the bigger one.
3, Use a temporary indoor setup while I plan the outdoor space for the smaller one so it's ready to build as soon as we are out of heat advisories.
4, Move outdoors to 9x24' space and start reinforcing fence around the rest of the yard for more grazing space come spring.
That said, we have a good sized yard, but it's not acreage. There's 30'x50' of just grass. But is that enough? I thought it was, but maybe not. There's not a #5 step to this plan. That is the space we have. 9x24 for main habitat and an additional 30x50' for grazing. If this isn't enough, I'll rehome them both.

@wellington I'm aware one bad spot to another isn't a proper rescue, but truly respectfully, I make no apologies for getting them out of a fly infested aquarium, eating peas daily. "Now" would be great, but rehoming is taking time.

 

[wellington]

One is 5" and one is 6" (BB). I was told the 2x4 (it's slightly bigger but definitely not 8x3) would be big enough for some months for the 5" until he/she moves outside. I saw a post from
@Tom that says 4x8 that lasts until they are 8-10in. They will be moved outside completely well before they reach that size unless what I found online about growth rates is wrong. I can definitely do a pen outside. There were some animal hospital sites saying the extreme heat we get here was not safe for this age, so that's why I started inside to begin with. Going outside for part of the day is doable as well, though, and might be a way to be safe with the heat. It was 110+ a few days last week.

In terms of rehoming, all the shelters are overrun here, and the rescue in Houston can't meet for 2 weeks, so I'm stuck. There's a veterinarian moving to Austin interested in adopting, but she won't be here for 4 weeks. There are others interested in rehoming sooner, but no one prepared or experienced, which makes me nervous. Not that I am experienced (clearly)

To that end, I haven't seen a kind of guide or book people agree on for in-depth information that people can use to figure out their unique situations, and I've seen a very wide range of what is recommended for all kinds of things by vets, zookeepers, people who have been raising them for years. What one animal hospital will say is good someone on this forum will say is terrible. I would think a guide written by a vet would be the gold standard, but that hasn't been the case. Is there a golden book on sulcatas that people agree on?

To be clear, my plan was this...
1, Get them the heck out of that small aquarium into a clean space with food and clean water and lamps for light and warmth.
2, Rehome the bigger one.
3, Use a temporary indoor setup while I plan the outdoor space for the smaller one so it's ready to build as soon as we are out of heat advisories.
4, Move outdoors to 9x24' space and start reinforcing fence around the rest of the yard for more grazing space come spring.
That said, we have a good sized yard, but it's not acreage. There's 30'x50' of just grass. But is that enough? I thought it was, but maybe not. There's not a #5 step to this plan. That is the space we have. 9x24 for main habitat and an additional 30x50' for grazing. If this isn't enough, I'll rehome them both.

@wellington I'm aware one bad spot to another isn't a proper rescue, but truly respectfully, I make no apologies for getting them out of a fly infested aquarium, eating peas daily. "Now" would be great, but rehoming is taking time.

2x4 is for a hatchling, nothing bigger than maybe 3-4 inches. It's to small for yours.
@EppsDynasty has a rescue and that's the best you could do for them is turn them over to them.

 

[Tom]

One is 5" and one is 6" (BB). I was told the 2x4 (it's slightly bigger but definitely not 8x3) would be big enough for some months for the 5" until he/she moves outside. I saw a post from
@Tom that says 4x8 that lasts until they are 8-10in. They will be moved outside completely well before they reach that size unless what I found online about growth rates is wrong. I can definitely do a pen outside. There were some animal hospital sites saying the extreme heat we get here was not safe for this age, so that's why I started inside to begin with. Going outside for part of the day is doable as well, though, and might be a way to be safe with the heat. It was 110+ a few days last week.

In terms of rehoming, all the shelters are overrun here, and the rescue in Houston can't meet for 2 weeks, so I'm stuck. There's a veterinarian moving to Austin interested in adopting, but she won't be here for 4 weeks. There are others interested in rehoming sooner, but no one prepared or experienced, which makes me nervous. Not that I am experienced (clearly)

To that end, I haven't seen a kind of guide or book people agree on for in-depth information that people can use to figure out their unique situations, and I've seen a very wide range of what is recommended for all kinds of things by vets, zookeepers, people who have been raising them for years. What one animal hospital will say is good someone on this forum will say is terrible. I would think a guide written by a vet would be the gold standard, but that hasn't been the case. Is there a golden book on sulcatas that people agree on?

To be clear, my plan was this...
1, Get them the heck out of that small aquarium into a clean space with food and clean water and lamps for light and warmth.
2, Rehome the bigger one.
3, Use a temporary indoor setup while I plan the outdoor space for the smaller one so it's ready to build as soon as we are out of heat advisories.
4, Move outdoors to 9x24' space and start reinforcing fence around the rest of the yard for more grazing space come spring.
That said, we have a good sized yard, but it's not acreage. There's 30'x50' of just grass. But is that enough? I thought it was, but maybe not. There's not a #5 step to this plan. That is the space we have. 9x24 for main habitat and an additional 30x50' for grazing. If this isn't enough, I'll rehome them both.

Unfortunately, many people go through this. Vets, books, breeders, YT, FB, reddit, people at expos, etc... Almost all of them are giving the same old wrong care info. How is a new person supposed to know who to listen to? I don't have the answer to that question, but this forum is the only place I have seen that is giving out the correct care info. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and even if there was, they would probably be getting their info from the same old wrong sources that everybody else learned that wrong info from.

I did it "their way", the old wrong way for almost 20 years. So did MarkW84. He and I didn't even know each other back then, but we were having the same problems with all that old advice. We both figured it out about 15 years ago, and we've been experimenting and playing with the details ever since then. Lots of people out there have kept sulcatas for two or three decades, but how many are raising smooth babies and reproducing them for several generations? How many of those people are doing side-by-side experiments with dozens of clutch mates over a period of years to see what works best and why, and to test out all these theories? How many did it "that" way for decades, learned better, and have now done it "this" way for more than a decade? The answer to these questions is not too many..., but several of the people here can say they have done all that, and we know better than the people who have been keeping them the same amount of time, since the late 80s or early 90s, but have not done all that stuff to learn what we have learned.

Here is what I can tell you in the simplest way possible, and I want you to question any of it that doesn't make sense to you. Argue your case. Ask for an explanation of why my info differs from other info you've seen:
1. 2x4 is better than a smaller glass tank, but its still way too small for a 5 or 6 inch tortoise. This can cause health issues. Sleeping in a 2x4 at night, but running around in a large pen outside during the day is a compromise that should prevent these health problems.
2. Indoors in a large closed chamber is better than outdoors if you are trying to stop pyramiding. Best to keep them in that 4x8 until they are at least 8 inches, and preferably 10. Some outside time daily is fine, but mostly indoors will be better for them.
3. If the indoors can't work for you and there is no alternative, then outside will have to do, but they will need a thermostat controlled heated shelter to sleep in.
4. They need to be separated regardless of all else.
5. 9x24 will be fine for next year, and then 9x24', plus 30x50' will be enough for one as it gets larger.
6. Growth rates vary tremendously and for a wide variety of reasons. I would put no credence into whatever it is you have been reading. This is totally unpredictable. Sometimes when they have received poor care, they are stunted forever. Other times, they hardly grow at all for a few years, and then sprout. Still other times, they start growing like a weed as soon as they get hydrated, fed properly, and kept warm. There is just no way to know how this will go.
7. It is best for them to be living underground in a self-dug burrow when its 110 topside. Then, in the fall, you have to catch them above ground and block that burrow entrance and make them sleep in their heated night boxes until late spring when temperatures soar into the 100s again. Encourage them them to burrow where you want them to burrow by digging a big hole with a sloped entrance to get them started. If they don't have a burrow, you need heavy deep shade, shade cloth, bushes to hide under, mud wallows, shallow water dishes, sprinklers, and misters to keep them cool. Their size or age has little to do with this. Granted a 35 gram hatchling can over heat and die faster than a 35 pound subadult, but both of them must be able to stay cooler than ambient. It gets 110 almost daily where they are from.

Hope this info helps.

 

[FoldintheCheese]

Unfortunately, many people go through this. Vets, books, breeders, YT, FB, reddit, people at expos, etc... Almost all of them are giving the same old wrong care info. How is a new person supposed to know who to listen to? I don't have the answer to that question, but this forum is the only place I have seen that is giving out the correct care info. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school, and even if there was, they would probably be getting their info from the same old wrong sources that everybody else learned that wrong info from.

I did it "their way", the old wrong way for almost 20 years. So did MarkW84. He and I didn't even know each other back then, but we were having the same problems with all that old advice. We both figured it out about 15 years ago, and we've been experimenting and playing with the details ever since then. Lots of people out there have kept sulcatas for two or three decades, but how many are raising smooth babies and reproducing them for several generations? How many of those people are doing side-by-side experiments with dozens of clutch mates over a period of years to see what works best and why, and to test out all these theories? How many did it "that" way for decades, learned better, and have now done it "this" way for more than a decade? The answer to these questions is not too many..., but several of the people here can say they have done all that, and we know better than the people who have been keeping them the same amount of time, since the late 80s or early 90s, but have not done all that stuff to learn what we have learned.

Here is what I can tell you in the simplest way possible, and I want you to question any of it that doesn't make sense to you. Argue your case. Ask for an explanation of why my info differs from other info you've seen:
1. 2x4 is better than a smaller glass tank, but its still way too small for a 5 or 6 inch tortoise. This can cause health issues. Sleeping in a 2x4 at night, but running around in a large pen outside during the day is a compromise that should prevent these health problems.
2. Indoors in a large closed chamber is better than outdoors if you are trying to stop pyramiding. Best to keep them in that 4x8 until they are at least 8 inches, and preferably 10. Some outside time daily is fine, but mostly indoors will be better for them.
3. If the indoors can't work for you and there is no alternative, then outside will have to do, but they will need a thermostat controlled heated shelter to sleep in.
4. They need to be separated regardless of all else.
5. 9x24 will be fine for next year, and then 9x24', plus 30x50' will be enough for one as it gets larger.
6. Growth rates vary tremendously and for a wide variety of reasons. I would put no credence into whatever it is you have been reading. This is totally unpredictable. Sometimes when they have received poor care, they are stunted forever. Other times, they hardly grow at all for a few years, and then sprout. Still other times, they start growing like a weed as soon as they get hydrated, fed properly, and kept warm. There is just no way to know how this will go.
7. It is best for them to be living underground in a self-dug burrow when its 110 topside. Then, in the fall, you have to catch them above ground and block that burrow entrance and make them sleep in their heated night boxes until late spring when temperatures soar into the 100s again. Encourage them them to burrow where you want them to burrow by digging a big hole with a sloped entrance to get them started. If they don't have a burrow, you need heavy deep shade, shade cloth, bushes to hide under, mud wallows, shallow water dishes, sprinklers, and misters to keep them cool. Their size or age has little to do with this. Granted a 35 gram hatchling can over heat and die faster than a 35 pound subadult, but both of them must be able to stay cooler than ambient. It gets 110 almost daily where they are from.

Hope this info helps.

All makes sense and very helpful!

Just a couple clarifying questions:
For #1-2, I'm trying to figure out an indoor change-up, but getting time outside is doable right away. Is there anything I need to do to support the transition from outside to inside other than just putting them under a lamp? (a/c is usually 75-ish)
#5-- I just want to make sure-- Is this sufficient for one fully-grown to be happy? I can make adjustments, but I don't want to be unrealistic about whether the end goal is going to work.

 

[Tom]

All makes sense and very helpful!

Just a couple clarifying questions:
For #1-2, I'm trying to figure out an indoor change-up, but getting time outside is doable right away. Is there anything I need to do to support the transition from outside to inside other than just putting them under a lamp? (a/c is usually 75-ish)
#5-- I just want to make sure-- Is this sufficient for one fully-grown to be happy? I can make adjustments, but I don't want to be unrealistic about whether the end goal is going to work.

There is a bunch of info for an indoor set up. It is more than just a lamp for basking, and 75 is to cool for an ambient temp indoors. It needs to stay above 80. All of this and more is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

There is no "transition". They just need the correct conditions indoor or out, and there is a pretty large range of suitable temps and conditions. Absolute perfection is not required for this species, but strive for optimal conditions as much as you can.

The two combined areas you mentioned are enough room for an adult.

 

[FoldintheCheese]

There is a bunch of info for an indoor set up. It is more than just a lamp for basking, and 75 is to cool for an ambient temp indoors. It needs to stay above 80. All of this and more is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

There is no "transition". They just need the correct conditions indoor or out, and there is a pretty large range of suitable temps and conditions. Absolute perfection is not required for this species, but strive for optimal conditions as much as you can.

The two combined areas you mentioned are enough room for an adult.

(I should have clarified-- I just meant the transition coming through the door. Their spot is right at 80 at night and a bit warmer during the day with the hydroponics nearby and window. You answered my question, just don't want you worried they are over here freezing.)
Thank you for everything!