This Is A Must Have.

Maggie3fan

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If you keep aquatic turtles, redfoots, fish or anything for that matter this is a must have.

A 200ft hose and a sink adapter. Mist your animals or fill waters all over the house.

A lot of people are skeptical about temu, but most of the items are practical. I personally wouldn't buy electronics, but this makes life a little easier in the house.
I am close to addicted to temu...the shipping takes forever, but products aren't bad...
 

DoubleD1996!

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Me too. What were we thinking lol
Its all good, we're big girls and boys๐Ÿ˜‚.

I don't think Tom's a bad guy. He's knowledgeable, but he has to remember that most of the people didn't join this forum because we are novice, but because we wanted to interact with like minded people, pick each other's brains, draw inspiration from others post and maybe put a spin on it that suits our needs or climate.

It's a man's job to lead his household, not a forum. Even people's kids don't follow in their footsteps, so you can't expect people to do the same as you. If every blue print was the same we'd walk in the wrong house. People are more likely to follow a leader they respect and, not only exemplifies knowledge, but good character.

It's true not everyone does right by animals, that's the world we live in, but most people on this forum do. People need to be educated, not scolded for not doing things your way.
 

TammyJ

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I have one final thing to say here on this frayed thread. People here with years of experience are simply trying to teach others the right way, that "right way" naturally being their very own, tried and trusted way! What else can you do but teach what you have honestly found to be effective?
 

Tom

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Tom, I cannot figure what Sulcata have to do with water?
What do sulcata have to do with water? Its an example of Barb saying, "Well I've done it this way for all theses years and the animals are fine..." That is EXACTLY what people come on to this forum and say when we tell them that the YT advice they found years ago to care for their baby suclata is wrong. It does nothing to address the stunted growth and pyramiding, but their animal is still breathing, so they proclaim that what they are doing must be A-OK. I am trying to use an example here on a tortoise forum that all of us understand to illustrate a point here. Because the care method you are using didn't outright kill the animal, does not mean its good for them, like a baby tortoise in a dry enclosure on dry substrate.

...your example is understood, but doesn't work. I use water from the faucet that comes from a ponding basin about 100 yards from my house.
Do you understand that every municipality in this country is legally obligated to treat and test the water that they provide to the citizenry? The water is treated with low levels of chlorine and ammonia. These two chemicals bond and form chloramines which last longer and are more persistent than the two parent chemicals. These chemicals serve to disinfect our tap water and make it safe to drink. At these low levels, chlorine, ammonia and chloramines are not toxic to mammals, birds or reptiles, but they ARE still toxic and damaging to animals that live and breath water like fish and amphibians. It can burn their gills and skin. As I stated back in post number three, there chemicals are probably okay for turtles since they breathe air and have less permeable skin than amphibians, but I'm not 100% certain of that. I am 100% certain that these chemicals are bad for fish.

In rural areas like yours and mine, many homes get their water from a well. Water is pumped directly out of the ground from deep aquifers, and it does not run through any sort of city treatment plant. I don't know the details, but that seems like what is happening at your place? In this case, the water needs no treatment before exposing fish or amphibians to it, because it has no chemicals in it that are toxic to them. Its coming straight out of the ground an into large above ground holding tanks. No disinfection chemicals are added at any time.

What Barb is doing is putting straight chemically treated city tap water with these toxic chemicals into fish tanks with live aquatic animals and fish and putting in the chemicals to detoxify it AFTER it is already in the tank burning fish gills and "disinfecting" the beneficial bacteria bed. What I am advocating is treating the tap water with the de-toxification chemicals, usually sodium thiosulfate, and let the compresses gasses come out of solution BEFORE putting that toxic water into a fish tank with live fish and animals. Barb seems to think that would be inconvenient, yet I've been doing it that with every fish tank I have worked with, 1000s of them, literally since 1985 at home and in every pet store fish room that I managed and maintained.

IMO this Forum always recommends a more expensive inconvenient not necessary way of keeping turtles and tortoises...not everyone even comes close to having the kind of money you and a few others have here. At times it is ridiculous what is recommended for newbies.
I don't know what this has to do with money. You either de-toxify the tap water before it goes into the fish tank, or after it goes into the fish tank. One is good for the fish, the other is bad for the fish. What does this part of the argument have to do with keeping turtles and tortoises?

You cannot prove what you are saying about the water...just my experience and opinion...
Uhh... Yes I can. This is public knowledge. Anyone in the country can look up their local city tap water and get copies of the chlorine, ammonia and chloramine levels that are maintained in the water for public safety. Cities test weekly or monthly and publish the results publicly. For someone that is on well water, or some other water system that is not chemically treated and disinfected by a city, none of this applies. My house is on city water, and my ranch is on well water. I treat the city water before it goes into my fish tanks. I do not treat the well water because there is nothing in it to treat.

...as an example...I have a cheap mini green house over a tort table for a RedFoot...you recommend the small expensive glass closed chambers made by a friend of yours....My cheap green house is bigger and just as useful...
Mark's enclosures are made of plastic. Your are arguing this point from a position of ignorance. That is not an insult. It is a statement of fact. If you were to get a dozen hatchlings from the same clutch and put six in your style of enclosure and six into one of Mark's enclosures, and then raise each group for 6 months or more the difference would be striking and obvious to you and anyone observing. After you have done this, then we can have a meaningful, experience based conversation about the pros and cons of each way of doing it.

...the water is the same thing..you recommend a not necessarily necessary hose and parts...
I have taken water samples to the OSU extension here, it' is alright, for fish from the faucet...OSU is Oregon State University.
The water is clearly NOT the same thing as I have illustrated here and in previous posts. YOUR water may very well be fine right out of the faucet, as is my water at my ranch that you have been to. Most CITY water in most of the country is NOT "alright" for fish as you put it, because of the water treatment chemicals that are used in it to keep it safe for humans to drink and bathe in as it travels through miles of pipes on its way to people's homes. City water needs to be detoxified with simple, easy to get chemicals BEFORE it goes into a fish tank and fish start breathing it.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but sometimes you are just not correct in what you say...
That is correct. Sometimes I am wrong about things. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes we learn better. I was wrong about how to raise baby sulcatas back in the 90s, and then I learned better and chose to do better. I'd like you to remember the arguments, resistance, hostility and insults that came my way when I joined this forum many years ago talking about raising babies with humidity and damp substrate. Was I wrong then?
 

Tom

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If I know what I'm doing?
I guess you're the only one that can know what they are doing!
Talk all you want. I have seen the proof over and over for many years! Been doing it the same way for many, many years. If it was bad, as you say, my fish would not thrive and I my job would have went out of business many years ago. The End!
This feeling you are having right now, I want you to remember this next time someone comes to the forum and you tell them that its not okay for their tortoise to run loose on the floor in their house or have "play time" at their local park. When they argue you with you and tell you they've been doing it this way for years, and they IGNORE all the potential legitimate dangers you are warning them about, and that they are doing is right as rain and ignoring what is so obvious to you, telling you how they've been doing it for years this way and their tortoise is fine, I want you to remember how you feel right now.
 

Tom

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How many vans, barrows, employees do you think we'd have to have in order to service those customers if we had to fill barrows and let them sit over night some place. Then transport them and carry them up to the customers 2nd or 3rd floor room to do the water change. Then the cost of all that would be triple, probably more, than what they are paying now.
Its really easy. You get a heavy duty rubber made trash can on wheels with a powerhead and a heater in it, if necessary. You put all your maintenance equipment and everything you will need in it and easily wheel it up to the residence. Elevators are no problem. It rolls easily and there is no weight in it yet. Upon arrival, empty your stuff out of it, fill it with as much water of the correct temperature as is needed, plug in the powerhead, and put in your Amquel. While that is "cooking", you go scrub your algae, vacuum the gravel, clean the filters, and dump your waste water wherever you are going to dump it. At this point, the fresh tap water will have been circulating for at least 20 or 30 minutes and will be safe for the fish. I have a hose on my powerhead, I plug the end with my finger and lift it up the rim of the tank. The powerhead pumps the treated water into the tank and I have a little spring loaded clamp to hold the end of the hose in place while the tank refills. While that is happening, I clean up my messes and prepare to leave. Its quick, efficient and better for the fish.

When I have the luxury of time for my tanks at home, or tanks in a store where I worked, I would leave the water to circulate longer, but the above method served me well for maintenance customers for decades.
 

Tom

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I was just recommending a good product and some of its potential uses๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚
It is not a good product if someone is putting city tap water directly into a fish tank without treating it first. If you are on well water, then I can see where a person might like this product.
 

Tom

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Its all good, we're big girls and boys๐Ÿ˜‚.

I don't think Tom's a bad guy. He's knowledgeable, but he has to remember that most of the people didn't join this forum because we are novice, but because we wanted to interact with like minded people, pick each other's brains, draw inspiration from others post and maybe put a spin on it that suits our needs or climate.

It's a man's job to lead his household, not a forum. Even people's kids don't follow in their footsteps, so you can't expect people to do the same as you. If every blue print was the same we'd walk in the wrong house. People are more likely to follow a leader they respect and, not only exemplifies knowledge, but good character.

It's true not everyone does right by animals, that's the world we live in, but most people on this forum do. People need to be educated, not scolded for not doing things your way.
All good points that I agree with. Here is the problem: When any of us see something that we know is potentially harmful to animals, we speak up. I'm not trying to lead a forum. I'm trying to tell you, Barb, and thousands of people reading this thread that chemically treated city water needs to be detoxified BEFORE it goes in to an established fish tank. Frankly, I can't understand what the argument and opposition to this is. Is anywhere here arguing that breathing in ammonia, chlorine and chloramines is GOOD for fish? Is someone trying to assert that these bacteria killing disinfection chemicals are GOOD for the Nitrosonomas and Nitrobacter in the filter bed???

Holy cow. This is insanity. It goes right along with the rest of what we are seeing in society right now. Right is wrong and down is up...
 

Maggie3fan

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What do sulcata have to do with water? Its an example of Barb saying, "Well I've done it this way for all theses years and the animals are fine..." That is EXACTLY what people come on to this forum and say when we tell them that the YT advice they found years ago to care for their baby suclata is wrong. It does nothing to address the stunted growth and pyramiding, but their animal is still breathing, so they proclaim that what they are doing must be A-OK. I am trying to use an example here on a tortoise forum that all of us understand to illustrate a point here. Because the care method you are using didn't outright kill the animal, does not mean its good for them, like a baby tortoise in a dry enclosure on dry substrate.


Do you understand that every municipality in this country is legally obligated to treat and test the water that they provide to the citizenry? The water is treated with low levels of chlorine and ammonia. These two chemicals bond and form chloramines which last longer and are more persistent than the two parent chemicals. These chemicals serve to disinfect our tap water and make it safe to drink. At these low levels, chlorine, ammonia and chloramines are not toxic to mammals, birds or reptiles, but they ARE still toxic and damaging to animals that live and breath water like fish and amphibians. It can burn their gills and skin. As I stated back in post number three, there chemicals are probably okay for turtles since they breathe air and have less permeable skin than amphibians, but I'm not 100% certain of that. I am 100% certain that these chemicals are bad for fish.

In rural areas like yours and mine, many homes get their water from a well. Water is pumped directly out of the ground from deep aquifers, and it does not run through any sort of city treatment plant. I don't know the details, but that seems like what is happening at your place? In this case, the water needs no treatment before exposing fish or amphibians to it, because it has no chemicals in it that are toxic to them. Its coming straight out of the ground an into large above ground holding tanks. No disinfection chemicals are added at any time.

What Barb is doing is putting straight chemically treated city tap water with these toxic chemicals into fish tanks with live aquatic animals and fish and putting in the chemicals to detoxify it AFTER it is already in the tank burning fish gills and "disinfecting" the beneficial bacteria bed. What I am advocating is treating the tap water with the de-toxification chemicals, usually sodium thiosulfate, and let the compresses gasses come out of solution BEFORE putting that toxic water into a fish tank with live fish and animals. Barb seems to think that would be inconvenient, yet I've been doing it that with every fish tank I have worked with, 1000s of them, literally since 1985 at home and in every pet store fish room that I managed and maintained.


I don't know what this has to do with money. You either de-toxify the tap water before it goes into the fish tank, or after it goes into the fish tank. One is good for the fish, the other is bad for the fish. What does this part of the argument have to do with keeping turtles and tortoises?


Uhh... Yes I can. This is public knowledge. Anyone in the country can look up their local city tap water and get copies of the chlorine, ammonia and chloramine levels that are maintained in the water for public safety. Cities test weekly or monthly and publish the results publicly. For someone that is on well water, or some other water system that is not chemically treated and disinfected by a city, none of this applies. My house is on city water, and my ranch is on well water. I treat the city water before it goes into my fish tanks. I do not treat the well water because there is nothing in it to treat.


Mark's enclosures are made of plastic. Your are arguing this point from a position of ignorance. That is not an insult. It is a statement of fact. If you were to get a dozen hatchlings from the same clutch and put six in your style of enclosure and six into one of Mark's enclosures, and then raise each group for 6 months or more the difference would be striking and obvious to you and anyone observing. After you have done this, then we can have a meaningful, experience based conversation about the pros and cons of each way of doing it.


The water is clearly NOT the same thing as I have illustrated here and in previous posts. YOUR water may very well be fine right out of the faucet, as is my water at my ranch that you have been to. Most CITY water in most of the country is NOT "alright" for fish as you put it, because of the water treatment chemicals that are used in it to keep it safe for humans to drink and bathe in as it travels through miles of pipes on its way to people's homes. City water needs to be detoxified with simple, easy to get chemicals BEFORE it goes into a fish tank and fish start breathing it.


That is correct. Sometimes I am wrong about things. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes we learn better. I was wrong about how to raise baby sulcatas back in the 90s, and then I learned better and chose to do better. I'd like you to remember the arguments, resistance, hostility and insults that came my way when I joined this forum many years ago talking about raising babies with humidity and damp substrate. Was I wrong then?
Frankly, I don't give a .... about anything you said except, you don't approve of my greenhouse? Now here we go, what is wrong? The consistent humidity, or no...it must be the consistent temperature, or the good substrate... or the walking room...what do you disapprove this time???
 

Okapizebra

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Hi everyone,

I don't often post here. But I wanted to express my opinion on this topic because I feel qualified. I am a marine biologist, I have worked in fish stores and public aquariums. I have probably changed hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. When adding prime or similar water conditioner before refilling with tap water, it is completely safe to add the water directly to the aquarium. Prime detoxifies chlorine and chloramine instantly. As soon as your water enters your aquarium, those chemicals are broken down. Your fish are never breathing in anything toxic. It is not harmful.

I'm not going to argue it works because of how long I've been doing it or how many water changes I've done. But simply by the science of how water conditioner works.
 

DoubleD1996!

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Hi everyone,

I don't often post here. But I wanted to express my opinion on this topic because I feel qualified. I am a marine biologist, I have worked in fish stores and public aquariums. I have probably changed hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. When adding prime or similar water conditioner before refilling with tap water, it is completely safe to add the water directly to the aquarium. Prime detoxifies chlorine and chloramine instantly. As soon as your water enters your aquarium, those chemicals are broken down. Your fish are never breathing in anything toxic. It is not harmful.

I'm not going to argue it works because of how long I've been doing it or how many water changes I've done. But simply by the science of how water conditioner works.
Thanks for the clarification
 

Yvonne G

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Well, it's been a long time since we've had a real knock down, drag out fight on here. I guess we're due.
 

wellington

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Its really easy. You get a heavy duty rubber made trash can on wheels with a powerhead and a heater in it, if necessary. You put all your maintenance equipment and everything you will need in it and easily wheel it up to the residence. Elevators are no problem. It rolls easily and there is no weight in it yet. Upon arrival, empty your stuff out of it, fill it with as much water of the correct temperature as is needed, plug in the powerhead, and put in your Amquel. While that is "cooking", you go scrub your algae, vacuum the gravel, clean the filters, and dump your waste water wherever you are going to dump it. At this point, the fresh tap water will have been circulating for at least 20 or 30 minutes and will be safe for the fish. I have a hose on my powerhead, I plug the end with my finger and lift it up the rim of the tank. The powerhead pumps the treated water into the tank and I have a little spring loaded clamp to hold the end of the hose in place while the tank refills. While that is happening, I clean up my messes and prepare to leave. Its quick, efficient and better for the fish.

When I have the luxury of time for my tanks at home, or tanks in a store where I worked, I would leave the water to circulate longer, but the above method served me well for maintenance customers for decades.
Tom, you aren't the only one with knowledge and experience! You wasted your time posting this! I read the first three words and stopped reading. I know how to do water changes! I have just as much or more experience than you when it comes to fish! Surprised I'm sure!
 
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wellington

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Hi everyone,

I don't often post here. But I wanted to express my opinion on this topic because I feel qualified. I am a marine biologist, I have worked in fish stores and public aquariums. I have probably changed hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. When adding prime or similar water conditioner before refilling with tap water, it is completely safe to add the water directly to the aquarium. Prime detoxifies chlorine and chloramine instantly. As soon as your water enters your aquarium, those chemicals are broken down. Your fish are never breathing in anything toxic. It is not harmful.

I'm not going to argue it works because of how long I've been doing it or how many water changes I've done. But simply by the science of how water conditioner works.
Oh but know, it can't work or be safe, Tom says so.
Thanks for posting this. I too know it works from years of doing it and working at an aquarium fish only store.
 

wellington

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All good points that I agree with. Here is the problem: When any of us see something that we know is potentially harmful to animals, we speak up. I'm not trying to lead a forum. I'm trying to tell you, Barb, and thousands of people reading this thread that chemically treated city water needs to be detoxified BEFORE it goes in to an established fish tank. Frankly, I can't understand what the argument and opposition to this is. Is anywhere here arguing that breathing in ammonia, chlorine and chloramines is GOOD for fish? Is someone trying to assert that these bacteria killing disinfection chemicals are GOOD for the Nitrosonomas and Nitrobacter in the filter bed???

Holy cow. This is insanity. It goes right along with the rest of what we are seeing in society right now. Right is wrong and down is up...
You are wrong Tom and you can't handle it, but you are!
No one is making their fish breath anything bad. No one is saying that it's good for them to breath it in. Surprise, it doesn't have to be done your way for it to be fish safe!
 

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