This Is A Must Have.

wellington

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This feeling you are having right now, I want you to remember this next time someone comes to the forum and you tell them that its not okay for their tortoise to run loose on the floor in their house or have "play time" at their local park. When they argue you with you and tell you they've been doing it this way for years, and they IGNORE all the potential legitimate dangers you are warning them about, and that they are doing is right as rain and ignoring what is so obvious to you, telling you how they've been doing it for years this way and their tortoise is fine, I want you to remember how you feel right now.
See Tom, this is again wrong. What I am doing is not wrong or dangerous to the fish, only in your closed mind!
 

Tom

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Frankly, I don't give a .... about anything you said except, you don't approve of my greenhouse? Now here we go, what is wrong? The consistent humidity, or no...it must be the consistent temperature, or the good substrate... or the walking room...what do you disapprove this time???
You are making things up in your mind. At no point did I say I don't approve of your greenhouse. I said, very clearly, that you have never done it the other way, and because of that you don't know which way is better, or why, or what the good and bad points of each way are. I don't disapprove of the greenhouses. It appears to be a way to solve the loss of humidity and hold in at least some of the heat. A proper closed chamber made with 1/2 thick PVC is going to hold in heat much better and operate much more efficiently.

Now go back and read the rest of it because it took me a lot of time this morning to type it all out for you, and it explains a lot.
 

Tom

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Tom, you aren't the only one with knowledge and experience! You wasted your time posting this! I read the first three words and stopped reading. I know how to do water changes! I have just as much or more experience than you when it comes to fish! Surprised I'm sure!
I know what your background is and that is why I'm surprised by your stance on this.

We can't have a conversation if you and everyone else have already made up your mind and are dismissing other points of view and facts without reading them.
 

Tom

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Hi everyone,

I don't often post here. But I wanted to express my opinion on this topic because I feel qualified. I am a marine biologist, I have worked in fish stores and public aquariums. I have probably changed hundreds of thousands of gallons of water. When adding prime or similar water conditioner before refilling with tap water, it is completely safe to add the water directly to the aquarium. Prime detoxifies chlorine and chloramine instantly. As soon as your water enters your aquarium, those chemicals are broken down. Your fish are never breathing in anything toxic. It is not harmful.

I'm not going to argue it works because of how long I've been doing it or how many water changes I've done. But simply by the science of how water conditioner works.
This is physically impossible. It takes time for the detox chemicals to circulate around and come in contact with all the the chlorine, ammonia and chloramine molecules. How much time? Well that varies tremendously with the volume of new water, volume of old water, concentration of each chemical, type and amount of circulation, etc... The chemical reaction is not instant until the molecules come into contact with each other in circulation.

Again, I am not arguing that fish are going to instantly die if exposed to tap water. I am not arguing that this is going to kill every aquarium system every time it is done. I AM arguing that tap water should be treated BEFORE it goes into a living aquarium system. The chemicals in the tap water are just one of the reasons.

Are you going to argue that it is better to put raw tap water into the system and treat it there? My argument for this whole thread is that it is better for the fish to treat and aerate city tap water BEFORE it goes into the tank. Do you diagreee?
 

Tom

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Well, it's been a long time since we've had a real knock down, drag out fight on here. I guess we're due.
This is not a fight. This should be a simple discussion among friends about which method is better and safer for fish, and what is wrong with the method that started this thread.

As we see daily with the tortoise info we dispense here, people don't like to be told they are doing it wrong. Some people more than others. Other than Okapizebra, no one has attempted to discuss the issues at hand, and all are choosing to shoot the messenger because they clearly don't like the message.
 

Tom

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See Tom, this is again wrong. What I am doing is not wrong or dangerous to the fish, only in your closed mind!
So you are arguing that it is better for fish to be breathing water with ammonia, chlorine, and excess gas in solution, while the detoxification process takes place, instead of simply treating and aerating the water before putting it into a tank with living animals?

Or is your argument that you know it is bad, but its much easier for you, and it really doesn't do all that much harm as far as you can tell?
 

Tom

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See Tom, this is again wrong. What I am doing is not wrong or dangerous to the fish, only in your closed mind!
And that is EXACTLY what the people with a tortoise running loose in their house think. They think what they are doing is fine and that you have a closed mind. They even say so!
 

wellington

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So you are arguing that it is better for fish to be breathing water with ammonia, chlorine, and excess gas in solution, while the detoxification process takes place, instead of simply treating and aerating the water before putting it into a tank with living animals?

Or is your argument that you know it is bad, but its much easier for you, and it really doesn't do all that much harm as far as you can tell?
What can't you or aren't willing to understand? It's very simple. You take out water with the Python. Then you add Prime to aquariums. Then you run water thru hose to clean out any remaining aquarium water and to get the temp correct. Then you fill. By the time you fill, the Prime is ready to do it's job and detoxify. It's actually ready immediately.
I am not wrong! I am not poisoning my fish nor am I making them breath in anything bad!!!
You can preach it till you are blue in the face. You are so wrong its not even funny.
No matter my experience and job for many years, likely more than you and you still just disregard it all and aren't willing to believe you are wrong.
I am so done now as I'm getting really peed that you are so adamant that you can't be wrong only everyone else!
So, you keep doing it your way and I will keep doing it mine. I will recommend the Python every chance I get because it makes water changes hassle free!!!
I'm done unless you keep disrespecting my experience, knowledge and proof!!!
 

wellington

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And that is EXACTLY what the people with a tortoise running loose in their house think. They think what they are doing is fine and that you have a closed mind. They even say so!
Good for them. But I'm not wrong, you are and acting just like those tortoise people you speak of!
 

Tom

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What can't you or aren't willing to understand? It's very simple. You take out water with the Python. Then you add Prime to aquariums. Then you run water thru hose to clean out any remaining aquarium water and to get the temp correct. Then you fill. By the time you fill, the Prime is ready to do it's job and detoxify. It's actually ready immediately.
I am not wrong! I am not poisoning my fish nor am I making them breath in anything bad!!!
You can preach it till you are blue in the face. You are so wrong its not even funny.
No matter my experience and job for many years, likely more than you and you still just disregard it all and aren't willing to believe you are wrong.
I am so done now as I'm getting really peed that you are so adamant that you can't be wrong only everyone else!
So, you keep doing it your way and I will keep doing it mine. I will recommend the Python every chance I get because it makes water changes hassle free!!!
I'm done unless you keep disrespecting my experience, knowledge and proof!!!
You are so full of fire and insults, but basic logic just seems to escape you.

What does prime do? It detoxifies the toxins that are in tap water, right?

It has to come in contact with the toxins in the water for it to work, right?

So you are putting Prime in the tank, and then you are adding tap water with toxins in it to the tank, and THEN the Prime goes to work detoxifying that tap water WHILE it is in the tank with the fish breathing it. Why can't you grasp the concept that this is bad and that the water should be detoxified BEFORE it goes into the tank? It is not good for fish to have contact with those chemicals before the water is detoxified. Even if it only takes a few minutes to work, that is a few minutes of exposure to toxins that is totally unnecessary and bad for the fish.
 

Okapizebra

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I have actually tested it. Prime does work instantly. I have tested for chlorine, with the water at the surface where the tap water was pouring in, and received a result of zero chlorine. Ive tested different areas around the tank during filling. Zero chlorine. I've tested this dozens of times to verify. This is with South florida tap water, absolutely loaded with chloramines and chlorine. So long as you dose prime for the full volume of the tank, not the amount you are replacing, the water is fully saturated with the water conditioner.

I have kept many sensitive and delicate creatures that if exposed to chlorine for a second, would have died. This makes me confident of the fact that my animals are not exposed during water changes.
 

Tom

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I have actually tested it. Prime does work instantly. I have tested for chlorine, with the water at the surface where the tap water was pouring in, and received a result of zero chlorine. Ive tested different areas around the tank during filling. Zero chlorine. I've tested this dozens of times to verify. This is with South florida tap water, absolutely loaded with chloramines and chlorine. So long as you dose prime for the full volume of the tank, not the amount you are replacing, the water is fully saturated with the water conditioner.

I have kept many sensitive and delicate creatures that if exposed to chlorine for a second, would have died. This makes me confident of the fact that my animals are not exposed during water changes.
Have you tested the tap water with that test kit by itself. The test kits I used to use weren't sensitive enough to pick up the low levels in tap water, and those test kits didn't test for chloramines which we reported to be more effective as disinfectants.

I have a 72 inch aquarium in my living room. You are telling me that if I put a teaspoon of Prime over on the left side that the chlorine, chloramine and ammonia over on the right side is instantly gone? That's not possible. It has to circulate. If you put the Prime in first and let it fully circulate before adding the tap water, I can see that working.

What about outgassing?

Why, as a marine biologist and aware of the sensitivity of some marine inverts, would you do it this way? It makes no sense? Are you taking about topping off evaporative losses? You would have to be, because no one would mix the salt in the tank with the animals? Would they? Or do you do that too?

For what reason would you not premix your salt and precondition the water before putting it in to a tank with sensitive marine animals?
 

wellington

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(If you put the Prime in first and let it fully circulate before adding the tap water, I can see that working.)

Peddling backwards?
 
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dd33

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I think I am with mostly with @Tom on this one. It may not be BAD to add water then dechlorinate but it would be much better to dechlorinate first then use the water. The instructions for Prime even say as much.

Preparing the water first let's you bring it up temperature better, ensure all the chlorine and chloramines are gone or if you are using well water, off gas any CO2 or H2S.

I have kept fish since birth and worked with fish professionally for 30 years, I have never once put untreated tap water into a tank with fish in it.
 

wellington

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I think I am with mostly with @Tom on this one. It may not be BAD to add water then dechlorinate but it would be much better to dechlorinate first then use the water. The instructions for Prime even say as much.

Preparing the water first let's you bring it up temperature better, ensure all the chlorine and chloramines are gone or if you are using well water, off gas any CO2 or H2S.

I have kept fish since birth and worked with fish professionally for 30 years, I have never once put untreated tap water into a tank with fish in it.
Actually it suggests dosing for both ways.
 

dd33

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Actually it suggests dosing for both ways.
Yes it does, here it is:

“May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume”
 

Okapizebra

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Yes, I have tested the tap. It comes up with a strong reading of chlorine.

No, I am not telling you to put it on the left side and not let it circulate. I never said that. I specifically stated to add for the full volume of the tank so that the whole tank was saturated with prime. If circulation is required for a large tank, then let the prime circulate for a few minutes before adding your tap water. Then you are good to go.

Chloramine does not out gas. Only chlorine. So there's no point in letting your water outgas. The chloramine will remain.

I'm strictly referring to freshwater. I always mix my salt and prepare my saltwater ahead of time. I use RO/DI water so chlorine isn't an issue.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't prepare your water ahead of time. By all means, go right ahead. I'm simply stating it's not harmful if done properly.
 

Tom

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I have kept fish since birth and worked with fish professionally for 30 years, I have never once put untreated tap water into a tank with fish in it.
My dad had piranhas and tanks with the big bruisers when I was born. Clown knifes, arowanas, oscars, etc... He got rid of all of them when I got tall enough to reach the top of the tanks and stick my fingers in. That would have been in the early to mid 70s.

10 years later, he started back up again with Malawi cichlids around '85, and that is when I started keeping my own. Fish keeping is one of the few gifts he gave to me.
 

Tom

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Yes, I have tested the tap. It comes up with a strong reading of chlorine.

No, I am not telling you to put it on the left side and not let it circulate. I never said that. I specifically stated to add for the full volume of the tank so that the whole tank was saturated with prime. If circulation is required for a large tank, then let the prime circulate for a few minutes before adding your tap water. Then you are good to go.

Chloramine does not out gas. Only chlorine. So there's no point in letting your water outgas. The chloramine will remain.

I'm strictly referring to freshwater. I always mix my salt and prepare my saltwater ahead of time. I use RO/DI water so chlorine isn't an issue.

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't prepare your water ahead of time. By all means, go right ahead. I'm simply stating it's not harmful if done properly.
Thank you for the clarification.

When I mentioned outgassing, I am not talking about chlorine. I'm talking about the extra dissolved gasses in solution due to the water being colder and under pressure in the pipes. I gave an example of bubbles forming and collecting on the side of a glass of tap water.
 

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