Thoughts on mimicking subspecies natural envrionment?

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Like many, I have had a lot of trouble finding pretty much any kind of detailed, in-depth, scientific research or documentation of Nabeuls in their wild habitat other than they reside in the semi-arid steppe area of Tunisia and across the northern region, stretching into Algeria.

So, to gain some knowledge about them, I've been looking into the Tunisian climate and learning about the land. I quickly realised how the standard care information given out for Greeks in general doesn't seem to match the average conditions they would experience in their own natural habitats. This doesn't just go for Tunisian/Nabeulensis Greeks, but a handful of the 'rarer' subspecies of T. Graeca too.

Knowing that, I started wondering; Wouldn't it be better if I mimicked the conditions of North Africa rather than following the standard Mediterranian advice? I mean, it seems like the standard is just a rough guide to keep the Tortoise comfortable enough to live and do Tortoise things rather than simulating it's natural habitats conditions?

What I mean by this is -

• Temperatures - From what I have seen, the standard advice given is largely a matter of opinion, but the average I've heard is 32c/89f in the basking zone. I looked at Tunisias weather and found that they regularly experience temperatures up to 38 every summer, with it sometimes being higher during heatwaves. With this is mind, I had the thought that surely the 'ideal' temp to have a Nabeuls basking zone around would be closer to 36-38c/96-100f?

• Humidity - Looking at the humidity around the semi-arid and northern coastal regions, it looks as though it's commonly around the low-to-mid 50s during summer days and spikes to the mid 80s at night before slowly falling to the mid 70s overnight, then dropping back to the 50s again in the morning when the sun blasts the humid air away. My enclosures are already being kept very close to these conditions, but are those numbers acceptable? I know their hide area is supposed to replicate a burrow, so that has a semi-transparet lid on that helps it stay at a near constant 73% with spikes to the mid 80s at night.

• Dietry - I've seen the majority of people suggest a balanced, varied diet of leafy greens, wildflowers, weeds, veg and some fruit as a rare treat, though some say not at all but that's a different post. Thing is, most say the regulars such as Dandelion, Cats Ear, Thistle, Stinging Nettle, Valerian, etc. are perfect for most species of both desert Torts and forest dwelling Torts, but after reading the list of commom flora found in Tunisia, I realised many wild Nabeuls would probably be eating things like Erodium, Yarrow, Capsella, Mallow, etc. instead of the things people often list, of which are more commonly found in meadow areas and grasslands with milder weather. Would it be more appropriate to source these seeds and start feeding those on a regular basis to closer match a more natural diet to their real one? Right now they eat a large diet of greens, flowers, wildflowers, shrubs, grasses and the occasional grape or cube of watermelon as a monthly treat, plus I have seen them eat small insects like beetles, aphids and spiders so they're very spoilt for choice. They get a dusting of calcium powder 3x a week too, and have access to cuttlebones. However, I'd like them to have as close to a natural diet as possible. I feel that they came from a certain area, they should live as though they are still in that area, like nature intended. Obviously I'd still give them other things they already like, but I wonder if they might be missing out on things they'd find in the wild.

• Local conditions outside - I live on the south-east coast of Britain, so we get a lot of rain but sizzling summer days in the high 20s, sometimes the low 30s. Our humidity in the relative area pretty much copies that of the Tunisian coast, the only different being that it's around 10 degrees cooler. I know that my Torts can spend time outside (and very much need to/should), but do these numbers mean what I think in that being outside in the natural humidity of my region shouldn't lead to any shell issues such as scute curling as recently mentioned to me by TeamZissou? They would still live indoors, but would it be okay for them to come outside with us as often as an subadult or adult?

• Substrates/Gound medium - I know this is a big, touchy subject among Tortoise keepers. I'm aware of all the arguments for what's best/worse/to be avoided, etc. It seems Sand is a very iffy one and something that causes a lot of disputes due to stories of ingestion leading to impaction and keepers claiming irritation of the Torts eyes and mucus membranes.

When it comes to Arid and Desert dwelling Torts, aren't these guys in sandy soil for their whole lives? I know wild Torts rarely live a full life span, but I can't imagine very many die from ingestion of sandy soil, but rather from predation or disease? I have seen my two willingly snap up a leaf covered in substrate, and although I know it's not good for them and I try to mitigate it from happening by feeding on smooth surfaces/dishes, I can't imagine the problem being purely what the substrate is made from. What I mean is, Coco Coir can clog them up just like sand, and has been known to get tangled in their intestines when they consume stringy pieces. Gravel can be harmful, even wood chips if they poke at eyes or are eaten.

SO.. I came up with the idea that instead of using straight-coco or straight-barkchips, I'd make a substrate to closely match the soil type/consistency tothat of which you'd find in Tunisia using geographical data on the landscape Nabeuls are found. Has anybody else tried anything like this apart from maybe Zoos for special animals? If so, how did you find it? Did you have any problems? Could you give me any suggestions?

Apologies that this post became a wall of text, I've tried my best to condense it down and make it as easy to read as possible.

Any thoughts on this idea are appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Like many, I have had a lot of trouble finding pretty much any kind of detailed, in-depth, scientific research or documentation of Nabeuls in their wild habitat other than they reside in the semi-arid steppe area of Tunisia and across the northern region, stretching into Algeria.

So, to gain some knowledge about them, I've been looking into the Tunisian climate and learning about the land. I quickly realised how the standard care information given out for Greeks in general doesn't seem to match the average conditions they would experience in their own natural habitats. This doesn't just go for Tunisian/Nabeulensis Greeks, but a handful of the 'rarer' subspecies of T. Graeca too.

Knowing that, I started wondering; Wouldn't it be better if I mimicked the conditions of North Africa rather than following the standard Mediterranian advice? I mean, it seems like the standard is just a rough guide to keep the Tortoise comfortable enough to live and do Tortoise things rather than simulating it's natural habitats conditions?

What I mean by this is -

• Temperatures - From what I have seen, the standard advice given is largely a matter of opinion, but the average I've heard is 32c/89f in the basking zone. I looked at Tunisias weather and found that they regularly experience temperatures up to 38 every summer, with it sometimes being higher during heatwaves. With this is mind, I had the thought that surely the 'ideal' temp to have a Nabeuls basking zone around would be closer to 36-38c/96-100f?

• Humidity - Looking at the humidity around the semi-arid and northern coastal regions, it looks as though it's commonly around the low-to-mid 50s during summer days and spikes to the mid 80s at night before slowly falling to the mid 70s overnight, then dropping back to the 50s again in the morning when the sun blasts the humid air away. My enclosures are already being kept very close to these conditions, but are those numbers acceptable? I know their hide area is supposed to replicate a burrow, so that has a semi-transparet lid on that helps it stay at a near constant 73% with spikes to the mid 80s at night.

• Dietry - I've seen the majority of people suggest a balanced, varied diet of leafy greens, wildflowers, weeds, veg and some fruit as a rare treat, though some say not at all but that's a different post. Thing is, most say the regulars such as Dandelion, Cats Ear, Thistle, Stinging Nettle, Valerian, etc. are perfect for most species of both desert Torts and forest dwelling Torts, but after reading the list of commom flora found in Tunisia, I realised many wild Nabeuls would probably be eating things like Erodium, Yarrow, Capsella, Mallow, etc. instead of the things people often list, of which are more commonly found in meadow areas and grasslands with milder weather. Would it be more appropriate to source these seeds and start feeding those on a regular basis to closer match a more natural diet to their real one? Right now they eat a large diet of greens, flowers, wildflowers, shrubs, grasses and the occasional grape or cube of watermelon as a monthly treat, plus I have seen them eat small insects like beetles, aphids and spiders so they're very spoilt for choice. They get a dusting of calcium powder 3x a week too, and have access to cuttlebones. However, I'd like them to have as close to a natural diet as possible. I feel that they came from a certain area, they should live as though they are still in that area, like nature intended. Obviously I'd still give them other things they already like, but I wonder if they might be missing out on things they'd find in the wild.

• Local conditions outside - I live on the south-east coast of Britain, so we get a lot of rain but sizzling summer days in the high 20s, sometimes the low 30s. Our humidity in the relative area pretty much copies that of the Tunisian coast, the only different being that it's around 10 degrees cooler. I know that my Torts can spend time outside (and very much need to/should), but do these numbers mean what I think in that being outside in the natural humidity of my region shouldn't lead to any shell issues such as scute curling as recently mentioned to me by TeamZissou? They would still live indoors, but would it be okay for them to come outside with us as often as an subadult or adult?

• Substrates/Gound medium - I know this is a big, touchy subject among Tortoise keepers. I'm aware of all the arguments for what's best/worse/to be avoided, etc. It seems Sand is a very iffy one and something that causes a lot of disputes due to stories of ingestion leading to impaction and keepers claiming irritation of the Torts eyes and mucus membranes.

When it comes to Arid and Desert dwelling Torts, aren't these guys in sandy soil for their whole lives? I know wild Torts rarely live a full life span, but I can't imagine very many die from ingestion of sandy soil, but rather from predation or disease? I have seen my two willingly snap up a leaf covered in substrate, and although I know it's not good for them and I try to mitigate it from happening by feeding on smooth surfaces/dishes, I can't imagine the problem being purely what the substrate is made from. What I mean is, Coco Coir can clog them up just like sand, and has been known to get tangled in their intestines when they consume stringy pieces. Gravel can be harmful, even wood chips if they poke at eyes or are eaten.

SO.. I came up with the idea that instead of using straight-coco or straight-barkchips, I'd make a substrate to closely match the soil type/consistency tothat of which you'd find in Tunisia using geographical data on the landscape Nabeuls are found. Has anybody else tried anything like this apart from maybe Zoos for special animals? If so, how did you find it? Did you have any problems? Could you give me any suggestions?

Apologies that this post became a wall of text, I've tried my best to condense it down and make it as easy to read as possible.

Any thoughts on this idea are appreciated!

Thanks!

Your concept is a good one. Try to learn as much as you can about the natural environment, and use that info to be a better keeper and improve living conditions where possible.

In practice, however, this concept leads to dead tortoises. Our ideas and our opinions about how they live in the wild are often wrong, and often lead to deadly housing practices. For example tortoises live hidden down in the brush. Usually taking advantage of heavy vegetation for cover and food. The weather data you've quoted is taken from the international standard of 2 meters high in an open area with no vegetation or structures. That is not where tortoises live. We had a presentation at TTPG from a veterinarian that toured the jungles of south Vietnam to observe the native turtles and learn about their lives in the wild. Day time temps were 95-100F and the humidity was so thick that he found it difficult to even breathe at times. When he stuck his thermometer down in the bush at his feet and into cubby holes where a turtle might hide, the temps were 68-72F. That is a 30F degree drop just by bending down to the ground. In the wild! Housing these turtle at the temp at human head height led to death and lack of reproduction. When he changed things based on what he learned AND what he had been observing in his own animals, things improved and he started getting annual babies from his rarely bred species.

Another example that hits closer to home for your species is the sulcata. I can find you two dozen references that will tell you they are a desert species. They are NOT! They come from forest edge and grassland areas. It takes a lot of annual rainfall to maintain forests and grasslands. Its not a desert in any way. Doesn't meet that definition. It IS arid there for 8-9 months of the year, but they are underground during that time. Guess what is going on the other 3-4 months a year that is almost never even mentioned... Monsoon season. Its hot humid, wet, rainy, and seasonal marshes and rivers form. Now guess what time of year babies hatch??? People misunderstanding these concepts has likely led to the deaths of a million sulcatas, mostly babies, over the last three decades.

We can argue all day about what we think happens in the wild and get nowhere. Weather references and personal accounts can be cited, but where does that get us? Instead, I propose we look at what works and what doesn't work, using thousands of real life examples, in our first hand captive enclosures. The info and evidence we need is right in front of us daily. Our enclosure are NOT the wild, and there are uncountable numbers of variables and differences.

You have been reading the wrong care info, as almost everyone does. What is the wrong care info? Almost everything you find in books, the internet, from vets, pet shops, and even most breeders. We have been doing it wrong for decades, and most people still don't even realize it.

• Temperatures - From what I have seen, the standard advice given is largely a matter of opinion, but the average I've heard is 32c/89f in the basking zone. I looked at Tunisias weather and found that they regularly experience temperatures up to 38 every summer, with it sometimes being higher during heatwaves. With this is mind, I had the thought that surely the 'ideal' temp to have a Nabeuls basking zone around would be closer to 36-38c/96-100f?

My care sheet says to keep the basking temps around 36-37C directly under the bulb. 32C is fine for a daytime high ambient temp, but too low for basking. Overnight low should drop to 18-20C and they can tolerate it lower.

• Humidity - Looking at the humidity around the semi-arid and northern coastal regions, it looks as though it's commonly around the low-to-mid 50s during summer days and spikes to the mid 80s at night before slowly falling to the mid 70s overnight, then dropping back to the 50s again in the morning when the sun blasts the humid air away. My enclosures are already being kept very close to these conditions, but are those numbers acceptable? I know their hide area is supposed to replicate a burrow, so that has a semi-transparet lid on that helps it stay at a near constant 73% with spikes to the mid 80s at night.

Refer back the the explanation of how this data is collected from weather stations 2 meters high. The umbers you are looking at are NOT reflective of where tortoises actually spend their time. Adults can tolerate lower humidity just fine. Babies will benefit from higher levels than what you list. Very little is known about babies in the wild of any species. They hatch and then disappear, and we don't see them again for years until they are bigger. In sea turtles, they call these "the lost years". We don't know what they are doing in the wild. We just know we don't see them or find them very often. We DO know what the results of various housing strategies in captivity give us, and more damp and humid yields better results for babies of all species than dry and desiccating.

• Dietry - I've seen the majority of people suggest a balanced, varied diet of leafy greens, wildflowers, weeds, veg and some fruit as a rare treat, though some say not at all but that's a different post. Thing is, most say the regulars such as Dandelion, Cats Ear, Thistle, Stinging Nettle, Valerian, etc. are perfect for most species of both desert Torts and forest dwelling Torts, but after reading the list of commom flora found in Tunisia, I realised many wild Nabeuls would probably be eating things like Erodium, Yarrow, Capsella, Mallow, etc. instead of the things people often list, of which are more commonly found in meadow areas and grasslands with milder weather. Would it be more appropriate to source these seeds and start feeding those on a regular basis to closer match a more natural diet to their real one? Right now they eat a large diet of greens, flowers, wildflowers, shrubs, grasses and the occasional grape or cube of watermelon as a monthly treat, plus I have seen them eat small insects like beetles, aphids and spiders so they're very spoilt for choice. They get a dusting of calcium powder 3x a week too, and have access to cuttlebones. However, I'd like them to have as close to a natural diet as possible. I feel that they came from a certain area, they should live as though they are still in that area, like nature intended. Obviously I'd still give them other things they already like, but I wonder if they might be missing out on things they'd find in the wild.

By all means study their native flora, and grow as much of that as you can for them. There are literally 100s or 1000s of different plant species in the native environment and different ones are favored at different times of the year. It isn't possible to duplicate this in captivity. The species of food plants typically listed as relatively easy to acquire and grow, and meet their nutritional needs well when used as part of a large variety. Adding native plants from your tortoise species' area of the world is a great idea and I LOVE doing this.

• Local conditions outside - I live on the south-east coast of Britain, so we get a lot of rain but sizzling summer days in the high 20s, sometimes the low 30s. Our humidity in the relative area pretty much copies that of the Tunisian coast, the only different being that it's around 10 degrees cooler. I know that my Torts can spend time outside (and very much need to/should), but do these numbers mean what I think in that being outside in the natural humidity of my region shouldn't lead to any shell issues such as scute curling as recently mentioned to me by TeamZissou? They would still live indoors, but would it be okay for them to come outside with us as often as an subadult or adult?

Outside time is great for babies in limited amounts, and great for adults whenever weather permits.

• Substrates/Gound medium - I know this is a big, touchy subject among Tortoise keepers. I'm aware of all the arguments for what's best/worse/to be avoided, etc. It seems Sand is a very iffy one and something that causes a lot of disputes due to stories of ingestion leading to impaction and keepers claiming irritation of the Torts eyes and mucus membranes.

When it comes to Arid and Desert dwelling Torts, aren't these guys in sandy soil for their whole lives? I know wild Torts rarely live a full life span, but I can't imagine very many die from ingestion of sandy soil, but rather from predation or disease? I have seen my two willingly snap up a leaf covered in substrate, and although I know it's not good for them and I try to mitigate it from happening by feeding on smooth surfaces/dishes, I can't imagine the problem being purely what the substrate is made from. What I mean is, Coco Coir can clog them up just like sand, and has been known to get tangled in their intestines when they consume stringy pieces. Gravel can be harmful, even wood chips if they poke at eyes or are eaten.

SO.. I came up with the idea that instead of using straight-coco or straight-barkchips, I'd make a substrate to closely match the soil type/consistency tothat of which you'd find in Tunisia using geographical data on the landscape Nabeuls are found. Has anybody else tried anything like this apart from maybe Zoos for special animals? If so, how did you find it? Did you have any problems? Could you give me any suggestions?

This one will lead you to many problems. Anything we use is a compromise. The soil we buy in bags in stores is made from composted yard waste and all sorts of other weird stuff that is fine for growing plants, but not so good for live animals to be living on in little tanks and such. Some components could be toxic or dangerous, and there is no way to know exactly what is in it. It should not be used.

Do some species encounter some sand in the wild? Almost certainly! In our captive environments, using sand leads to sand impaction. I've seen this dozens of times over the years. Just don't do it.

Coco coir works great for babies. I don't use the fibrous stuff. Fine grade orchid bark works best for adults. These statements come from literally several decades of using everything, observing what others use, and observing the results of all of it. I don't make this assertion lightly.

Here is the correct care info, and in our captive environments, it does work well for all the Mediterranean and other temperate species. Minor tweaks here and there for various species or climates are invited and often beneficial, but this info serves as a good starting point for all of them:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions and conversation welcome. Argue away!

 

[CoreCollapse]

Your concept is a good one. Try to learn as much as you can about the natural environment, and use that info to be a better keeper and improve living conditions where possible.

In practice, however, this concept leads to dead tortoises. Our ideas and our opinions about how they live in the wild are often wrong, and often lead to deadly housing practices. For example tortoises live hidden down in the brush. Usually taking advantage of heavy vegetation for cover and food. The weather data you've quoted is taken from the international standard of 2 meters high in an open area with no vegetation or structures. That is not where tortoises live. We had a presentation at TTPG from a veterinarian that toured the jungles of south Vietnam to observe the native turtles and learn about their lives in the wild. Day time temps were 95-100F and the humidity was so thick that he found it difficult to even breathe at times. When he stuck his thermometer down in the bush at his feet and into cubby holes where a turtle might hide, the temps were 68-72F. That is a 30F degree drop just by bending down to the ground. In the wild! Housing these turtle at the temp at human head height led to death and lack of reproduction. When he changed things based on what he learned AND what he had been observing in his own animals, things improved and he started getting annual babies from his rarely bred species.

Another example that hits closer to home for your species is the sulcata. I can find you two dozen references that will tell you they are a desert species. They are NOT! They come from forest edge and grassland areas. It takes a lot of annual rainfall to maintain forests and grasslands. Its not a desert in any way. Doesn't meet that definition. It IS arid there for 8-9 months of the year, but they are underground during that time. Guess what is going on the other 3-4 months a year that is almost never even mentioned... Monsoon season. Its hot humid, wet, rainy, and seasonal marshes and rivers form. Now guess what time of year babies hatch??? People misunderstanding these concepts has likely led to the deaths of a million sulcatas, mostly babies, over the last three decades.

We can argue all day about what we think happens in the wild and get nowhere. Weather references and personal accounts can be cited, but where does that get us? Instead, I propose we look at what works and what doesn't work, using thousands of real life examples, in our first hand captive enclosures. The info and evidence we need is right in front of us daily. Our enclosure are NOT the wild, and there are uncountable numbers of variables and differences.

You have been reading the wrong care info, as almost everyone does. What is the wrong care info? Almost everything you find in books, the internet, from vets, pet shops, and even most breeders. We have been doing it wrong for decades, and most people still don't even realize it.


My care sheet says to keep the basking temps around 36-37C directly under the bulb. 32C is fine for a daytime high ambient temp, but too low for basking. Overnight low should drop to 18-20C and they can tolerate it lower.


Refer back the the explanation of how this data is collected from weather stations 2 meters high. The umbers you are looking at are NOT reflective of where tortoises actually spend their time. Adults can tolerate lower humidity just fine. Babies will benefit from higher levels than what you list. Very little is known about babies in the wild of any species. They hatch and then disappear, and we don't see them again for years until they are bigger. In sea turtles, they call these "the lost years". We don't know what they are doing in the wild. We just know we don't see them or find them very often. We DO know what the results of various housing strategies in captivity give us, and more damp and humid yields better results for babies of all species than dry and desiccating.

By all means study their native flora, and grow as much of that as you can for them. There are literally 100s or 1000s of different plant species in the native environment and different ones are favored at different times of the year. It isn't possible to duplicate this in captivity. The species of food plants typically listed as relatively easy to acquire and grow, and meet their nutritional needs well when used as part of a large variety. Adding native plants from your tortoise species' area of the world is a great idea and I LOVE doing this.


Outside time is great for babies in limited amounts, and great for adults whenever weather permits.


This one will lead you to many problems. Anything we use is a compromise. The soil we buy in bags in stores is made from composted yard waste and all sorts of other weird stuff that is fine for growing plants, but not so good for live animals to be living on in little tanks and such. Some components could be toxic or dangerous, and there is no way to know exactly what is in it. It should not be used.

Do some species encounter some sand in the wild? Almost certainly! In our captive environments, using sand leads to sand impaction. I've seen this dozens of times over the years. Just don't do it.

Coco coir works great for babies. I don't use the fibrous stuff. Fine grade orchid bark works best for adults. These statements come from literally several decades of using everything, observing what others use, and observing the results of all of it. I don't make this assertion lightly.

Here is the correct care info, and in our captive environments, it does work well for all the Mediterranean and other temperate species. Minor tweaks here and there for various species or climates are invited and often beneficial, but this info serves as a good starting point for all of them:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions and conversation welcome. Argue away!

First point in relation to temp and humidity is interesting and I'll be looking further into that, but I tuned out after that...

1. Salcutas are certainly a desert species. They are found roaming both desert and grassland, which occur together. You're talking as if deserts and grasslands are seperated by some kind of hard border, but they're not. Where a desert ends, grasslands begin. That's the region you'll find most wildlife in deserts, including Salcutas. They roam grasslands for food, but they live in what would be considered desert-like conditions.

2. Our enclosures may not be the wild, but the least people should do is attempt to replicate the conditions close to the Tortoises natural habitat. These aren't 'pets' like people think, they're captive animals. Non-domesticated, very instinctual, wild. They should be kept in conditions that nature intended for them to live in. Or better yet, in their natural habitats... But we can't have that because humans are crap, to put it nicely.

Strange as literally everything I see online, being spoken about in forums and in care books says 32c is what to aim for in the basking zone for a Greek, and no lower than 25c for ambient temps with night temps dipping to 16-18c.

Funny how everybody on this site raves about how good soil is if it's also so dangerous?.. Maybe it's that way in America, but over here we have laws that don't allow the sale of products without the ingredients being listed plainly and clearly. This goes for food, drinks, soil, clothing, bath products, literally everything. I also wouldn't purchase any soil from just anywhere and use it. I'd use organic potting soil, sieved, treated and mixed with other materials.

You claim to have seen these impactions due to sand, but I disagree for a number of reasons. Not that you have seen them, but because if sand is so awful, why do experienced keepers of Tesudo species such as HermanniChris add sand to his substrates and never encounter any problems? Why does my local breeder use a soil-sand-coco mix and never have issues after almost 20 years of doing so?

Honestly, after reading stories of impactions, it seems more like a problem related to neglectful/forgetful behaviours and half-arsed care routines rather than anything relating to what particles the substrate contains.

- Any substrate can cause impaction if enough is consumed. My good friend has a local pet shop, sells his own clutches and works closely with several (4) reptile vets across my county. All have over 35 years of experience, all have experience with Tortoises, and one has her own Cherry Head.

Over this weekend, I bought this up to him and he decided to ask his contacts. He had never seen a case in the 14 years he has raised babies, but wanted to see how common it is for others. He was told two main points: None had ever personally seen a case of sand impaction in their careers, and that impaction is caused by anything indigestable being consumed, especially if in excess. It doesn't matter if it's coir, sand, soil, rabbit pellets, wood shavings, all can be dangerous and cause impaction. Those were their exact words.

- The arguement that sand sticks to food is moot when you consider that coir, soil, pretty much anything can also heavily stick to food just as much as sand or any other fine particle, especially if it's absorbant. There are a few tricks to mitigating it: Using a bowl/plate, monitoring feeding and clearing up dropped food litter. If these are done properly, substrate consumption will be minimal and witnessed.

- I've heard the whole 'Leaves don't get dirty in the wild, they're too high up' or 'they don't touch the ground', but that is incorrect. I've seen many, many photographs lately of Graecas in their natural habitats in Spain and Tunisia, as well as videos. Tortoise Trust has loads on their facebook page, and you can clearly see sandy soil dusting the leaves of the low-lying weeds such as Dandelions with Torts dotted around them, grazing away. Torts live their lives just inches off of the ground, eating whatever is at mouth-level or easy to reach. So, dusty, sandy, soily leaves would be consumed regularly, it would actually be inevitable for them.

- Hydration. A properly hydrated, healthy Tortoise consuming a balanced, well-thought diet won't have problems passing substrate because it will be making enough bile to aid bowel evacuation. These were the words of 2 of the 4 vets my friend spoke to about this subject.

- In the wild, Tortoises will sometimes eat dirt, sand or stones if they are lacking in minerals or vitamins. This never seems to lead to impaction that has been documented, or not from what I could find.

- I've also heard the point regarding sand 'sinking in the gut.' While that may be partically true, it still shouldn't lead to any issues since the Duodenum of a Torts stomach is situated so that it is lower than the stomach itself. Any dense particles that sink in the stomach bile will still be moved into the intestines due to both movement of the Tort and simple physics. The stomach is a muscle that pushes everything one way, and that way happens to be lower than where it already is. However, if the Tort is dehydrated, eating inedible things in excess, old or in poor health, impaction occurs.

I currently use Coco Coir, but I'm finding difficulty with it as it keeps clogging my Torts nairs and getting in their eyes when it dries out and becomes dusty, even with a lid and with constant misting/pouring of water.

I don't use fiberous coco, I use ProRep blocks that need to be presoaked, and then I sieve through it after a few days of drying in order to get as much of the fibers and chunks of unprocessed husk out as possible. Still doesn't get all of it though, and it still causes issues often.

Also, just to be straight, if you intend on replying (arguing) with me over the substrate debate, don't even bother giving this a response. I've come across enough of your bickering contests with other people over the years on here to know exactly what's bound to be on its way. I'll say it now, click away, don't even bother. A condesending/patronizing attitude isn't something I deal with patiently or respectfully.

 

[Tom]

A condesending/patronizing attitude isn't something I deal with patiently or respectfully.

Nor do I. If your mind is made up, and you don't care to learn from the experience of others, why did you post your "wall of text"?

P.S. Ask your vet friends how many semesters they completed on tortoise care while in vet school.

 

[turtlesteve]

You asked for feedback and got some. I’m not sure you really wanted what you asked for, but I will add my two cents:

The North African subspecies of greek tortoise may have some slight differences in care needs vs. other Greeks, but they are inhabiting climates in North Africa that are very Mediterranean/ European, not arid as you suggest. To draw a distinction, they are not at all like Egyptian tortoises (which stay warm year round) even though the ranges are very close to each other. Egyptians are generally low elevation tortoises. North African Greeks inhabit coastal mountainous regions, a different habitat and climate preference despite being very close in geography. Both Greeks and Egyptians get significant humidity (coastal influence), the Greeks get rain while the Egyptians not as much. The Greek tortoise habitats are green much of the year, the Egyptians not. See the satellite photography image - the range of Tunisian tortoises is the green coastal strip, and has similar vegetation cover to Spain or Italy. Similarly while some areas Tunisia are hot all the time, those places are not where these tortoises come from. These Greeks are getting down into the 40’s F in the winter despite being in North Africa.


Only a few breeders have succeeded with regularly producing the North African Greek subspecies, and the ones I’m aware of use more Europe-like temps with a significant winter cooldown. One successful breeder keeps North African Greeks outdoors on the US gulf coast.

Steve

 

[PA2019]

I keep nabeulensis. I’m sorry but I stopped reading your huge post, I appreciate that you are trying to articulate your thoughts, but man that is a lot.

There is no exact perfect way to keep nabeulensis, just as there is no perfect way to keep any species. People experiment, and from this we develop better husbandry. @Tom tried to explain that the data you can gather from the nabeuls habitat is not representative of the environmental parameters they experience ‘at their level’, and he is right. He also has a huge amount of experience working with multiple species, but I digress.

I have posted several threads on how I raised mine successfully, simply look in my threads. They need a daily ebb/flow of humidity, and the same concept applies for temperature. I never let the overall humidity drop below 50%, as I hate pyramiding, and they are not bothered by humidity levels in general. Mine bask under temps of 95-105 for hours. They love to dig down, so choose a substrate they can dig down into, but one that doesn’t turn rock hard when drying out.

Based on your posts, I feel like I used to be more like you, someone who scrutinizes and tried to analyze as much as possible about all parameters of my husbandry. Overtime I’ve found it’s better to watch the animals closely and tweak things based on their responses and behavior changes. Nabeuls are actually moderately hardy, provided some basics are met. Anyways, just my 2 cents, good luck 👍