Retiree
New Member
I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
You have not been belittled. You gave advice that is potentially harmful, and I said so. That is not belittling. That is making sure poor tortoise care advice is called out and stopped before it does ever more damage. Sounds like you are far too sensitive. I welcomed you to the group and offered free knowledge that would improve your tortoise's lives. That is being helpful, not belittling. No insults were slung your way, and no insult was intended. I addressed your outdated wrong info, and offered you help. If you are so sensitive that you can't see that, then this is not the place for you, and I don't know what place could possibly be for you. We take great care here to be welcoming and not insult people. We also work hard to promote good husbandry and advance tortoise care. When people come here that are not up to speed on all the new knowledge, it can be a bit of a culture shock. I hope you can get past your self-wounded pride and imagined insult and stick around to learn some new stuff. I hope you can teach me some new stuff. Nobody's tortoises are better off if you leave and close your mind.I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
Very True ,Tom is Not the only Expert here on this Forum, But Tom takes time to Help Everyone in Need.God Bless Tom.. We All have his Knowledge because he Shares it. I wouldn't care if he cussed me out on this Forum because I understand it's is Best for My Tortoise. Sorry you Feel the way you do, I'm sure Tom had your Tortoises best interests in mind and was trying to Help.I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?I can see how people come and get scared off. I have yet to post pictures of my own enclosure, which I am extremely proud of, because it goes against the common grain of how hatchlings are recommended to be cared for here- primarily by Tom. Still I really do think he would appreciate it, even if it's not how he would raise Sulcatas.
I think it's important not to dismiss in our frustrated feelings that amount of knowledge available and freely shared here. I do not agree with everything Tom says, but I am fascinated by the immense knowledge and experience he has and open to learning from whatever he is generous enough to share. I can see value in learning from him even when I do not agree. I like to know the WHY, he is good at backing up his Why's. He is not a person that makes it up as he goes, and he has sound reasoning and data behind what he recommends. I've seen over and over where he says, please if I'm wrong teach me something, show me what leads you to believe or conclude XYZ, and share with us your experiences in return.
Much like him, I don't care about being right or wrong, but I love to learn. I do absorb as much information as I can from every corner, make my own observations, and find my own way adjusting as necessary. The wealth of information I have learned here from Tom's posts spanning back over a dozen years is invaluable. I only wish when reading those 10 year old threads about his experiments Yvonne mentions that I still benefitted from the pictures (which are no longer active). I would love to see them.
Sometimes he is shorter than others, but like Zeropilot said, people don't like to do their due diligence and show up time and again saying here is my new tortoise now tell me how to take care of it. It's aggravating to start, and definitely when people come admit they are clueless, but somehow still seem to know better than you when you take the time to be helpful.
Because I truly don't feel it is wrong for my tortoises. As the title of the thread says, Tom is not the only expert; I agree. It is a mistake to only learn from one person. Chris from GST said my tortoises look "FANTASTIC" at a year of age. But they do disagree on how to do things, most here are aware of that. In fact, most TFO recommended Testudo breeders do not advocate for closed chambers of their hatchlings.If it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?
If your tortoises are smooth then you must be doing something right. If they are not, well then I'd say you are following the wrong advice.Because I truly don't feel it is wrong for my tortoises. As the title of the thread says, Tom is not the only expert; I agree. It is a mistake to only learn from one person. Chris from GST said my tortoises look "FANTASTIC" at a year of age. But they do disagree on how to do things, most here are aware of that. In fact, most TFO recommended Testudo breeders do not advocate for closed chambers of their hatchlings.
I have Testudo graeca ibera which do not require the same conditions as the species Tom raises, and which from my understanding he has more limited experience with. I do understand it is common for many here to recommend closed chambers regardless of species, but that is the part I disagree with. I believe there is more than one way to do something. I am following closely my tortoises and researching here daily to challenge my ideas, compare my progress, and be sure I feel confident they are receiving the best care. This includes reading Tom's advice to understand why he gives it, and comparing to other sources.
I would love to put them in front of Tom and ask his opinion, but that does require thick skin. I've slowly been introducing myself to posting more and considering it though. I can understand how it is intimidating to challenge Tom's ideas, which are widely accepted here. His reputation is well-earned though.
Closed chamber do work for Testudo and DTs, and they do not need to be kept as humid as the more tropical monsoon species, but open tops can work too. This is directly from my care sheet:Because I truly don't feel it is wrong for my tortoises. As the title of the thread says, Tom is not the only expert; I agree. It is a mistake to only learn from one person. Chris from GST said my tortoises look "FANTASTIC" at a year of age. But they do disagree on how to do things, most here are aware of that. In fact, most TFO recommended Testudo breeders do not advocate for closed chambers of their hatchlings.
I have Testudo graeca ibera which do not require the same conditions as the species Tom raises, and which from my understanding he has more limited experience with. I do understand it is common for many here to recommend closed chambers regardless of species, but that is the part I disagree with. I believe there is more than one way to do something. I am following closely my tortoises and researching here daily to challenge my ideas, compare my progress, and be sure I feel confident they are receiving the best care. This includes reading Tom's advice to understand why he gives it, and comparing to other sources.
I would love to put them in front of Tom and ask his opinion, but that does require thick skin. I've slowly been introducing myself to posting more and considering it though. I can understand how it is intimidating to challenge Tom's ideas, which are widely accepted here. His reputation is well-earned though.
My apologies! I just re-read both your Temperate species guide and your Sulcata one. At some point I got them mixed up and must have referenced the Sulcata one more recently.Closed chamber do work for Testudo and DTs, and they do not need to be kept as humid as the more tropical monsoon species, but open tops can work too. This is directly from my care sheet:
The Indoor Enclosure:
There is much debate about this one. Indoors, I prefer a closed chamber, aka vivarium. Its easy to maintain whatever temperature and humidity parameters you want with a closed chamber. For temperate species, tortoise tables can also work, but it does depend on the conditions in the room where your tortoise table sits. There is nothing wrong with starting babies in glass tanks or clear plastic tubs. These enclosures are better than low sided tables and sweater boxes for all the reasons "they" say they are bad. Reduced air flow helps to maintain the correct warm and moderately humid conditions. If the room air is cold and dry, then more ventilation is not good for your tortoise. Glass does NOT stress tortoises out, and they understand what it is perfectly fine. 40 years of using them says so. If you stick a wild caught adult Russian in the typical 40 gallon tank sold by pet stores, it will definitely stress out and constantly scratch at the side. This has to do with the tortoise's mental state and the size of the enclosure, not the glass.
All the members we have still using open top tables, well let's just say, most are not smooth. Many end up realizing the closed chamber is probably better and end up adding some kind of cover to their tables.My apologies! I just re-read both your Temperate species guide and your Sulcata one. At some point I got them mixed up and must have referenced the Sulcata one more recently.
I do see you have made distinctions between the two care guides in regards to open tables being a possibility for others raising temperate species depending on environment, just not one that you have found to work personally or your preference.
Well I guess that’s the real point I was making: it is not really accepted to raise in anything except close chambers.All the members we have still using open top tables, well let's just say, most are not smooth. Many end up realizing the closed chamber is probably better and end up adding some kind of cover to their tables.
It's not that it's not accepted. It's that it doesn't work. You are learning that yourself. All the others I mentioned, were never forced to use a closed chamber. They used an open table and wondered why their torts are pyramiding. If you want to continue to use an open table do so. But don't wonder why they are pyramiding. You are seeing your own proof that it's not working.Well I guess that’s the real point I was making: it is not really accepted to raise in anything except close chambers.
I did somewhat incorrectly represent what Tom said though from the wrong care sheet. Although he says open top may work, he also still recommends the closed chamber.