Tortoise left outside overnight and health questions.

[Alex and the Redfoot]

My bulbs direct heat is 96

But the actual hot area of the enclosure is 82

The rest of the area is 75

The cool area/hide is 64

I borrowed a temp gun from my neighbour who is also a tortoise owner.

My father, who bought the lamp, says it was a basking and UV bulb however he does not remember the brand.

I have taken notes on what i’ve read on the given links , those will be attached below.

I am also considering purchasing or making a vivarium rather than the table as she needs a larger space. I will replace my desk area with it. Would it be okay if i were to rest my TV on the vivarium?

This will obviously take a lot of saving and time but when i do get the vivarium i’ll have a basking light separate to a uv one with timers.

All-in-one lamps are a bit tricky to setup and expensive in the long term (with replacements every 6 months). So it's better to start with the correct light and heating and use a greenhouse top to convert a table to vivarium. Greenhouse frame can then be used to hang the lights.

To convert desk space to vivarium, if you don't mind some DIY, you can build a frame out of wood or PVC pipes (or get a cheap table/TV stand from IKEA and do some minimal waterproofing). For the walls you can go with coroplast or polycarbonate. A better option is to search for expanded PVC sheets - probably advertising signs companies can carry them or even have some left-over cuts for cheap.

You can place a TV on top of the vivarium with some precautions: get blackout curtains for vivarium glass doors (tortoises sleep in the dark) and don't watch it on high volume (definitely no bass enhancements or subwoofers, headphones are ideal).

 

[Grxciea]

All-in-one lamps are a bit tricky to setup and expensive in the long term (with replacements every 6 months). So it's better to start with the correct light and heating and use a greenhouse top to convert a table to vivarium. Greenhouse frame can then be used to hang the lights.

To convert desk space to vivarium, if you don't mind some DIY, you can build a frame out of wood or PVC pipes (or get a cheap table/TV stand from IKEA and do some minimal waterproofing). For the walls you can go with coroplast or polycarbonate. A better option is to search for expanded PVC sheets - probably advertising signs companies can carry them or even have some left-over cuts for cheap.

You can place a TV on top of the vivarium with some precautions: get blackout curtains for vivarium glass doors (tortoises sleep in the dark) and don't watch it on high volume (definitely no bass enhancements or subwoofers, headphones are ideal).

I don’t often use my tv anymore its mainly used to video games. I’m happy with DIY, the current table was actually hand crafted by myself. I’ll look into the greenhouse top as a temporary fixture until i sort out the vivarium. Money wise i’m unsure on what to fix first. The changes are the following:
-Lighting
-substrate
-Dietary changes.
As i am currently too young to work a job, i rely off of my £50 monthly allowance and the occasional £50-200 i can make from writing.
It may be a slow process so what would be the most urgent thing to fix?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I don’t often use my tv anymore its mainly used to video games. I’m happy with DIY, the current table was actually hand crafted by myself. I’ll look into the greenhouse top as a temporary fixture until i sort out the vivarium. Money wise i’m unsure on what to fix first. The changes are the following:
-Lighting
-substrate
-Dietary changes.
As i am currently too young to work a job, i rely off of my £50 monthly allowance and the occasional £50-200 i can make from writing.
It may be a slow process so what would be the most urgent thing to fix?

Ok, I understand. So what would I do:
1. Change the substrate. Pellets are really bad. Perhaps the cheapest and suitable option is coco coir (aka coco peat). Check gardening centers and plant nurseries - they may have large bricks much cheaper than you can get in pet stores.
2. As it's summer now - get your tortoise outside for 15-30 minutes a day for sunbathing. Make sure there is a shade available too. Check UV Index in hourly weather forecast - UV Index 3-5 is optimal for basking. 1-2 hours a week is enough to keep tortoise without UVB light. Same for ambient heating - it's usually not required in summer. Basking lamp is probably the only required element (to let your tortoise warm up in the morning), it's around 3-7 pounds at SwellReptile.
3. Good diet is crucial for tortoise health. Once again - it's summer. Try to find edible weeds outside like broadleaf plantain, dandelions, geranium, filaree and so on. Check thetortoisetable.org.uk for a list of edible plants. Some supplemental pellets like Nutrazu or Hikari Mulberrific or, better, Agrobs Pre Alpine Testudo would be beneficial.

 

[Grxciea]

Ok, I understand. So what would I do:
1. Change the substrate. Pellets are really bad. Perhaps the cheapest and suitable option is coco coir (aka coco peat). Check gardening centers and plant nurseries - they may have large bricks much cheaper than you can get in pet stores.
2. As it's summer now - get your tortoise outside for 15-30 minutes a day for sunbathing. Make sure there is a shade available too. Check UV Index in hourly weather forecast - UV Index 3-5 is optimal for basking. 1-2 hours a week is enough to keep tortoise without UVB light. Same for ambient heating - it's usually not required in summer. Basking lamp is probably the only required element (to let your tortoise warm up in the morning), it's around 3-7 pounds at SwellReptile.
3. Good diet is crucial for tortoise health. Once again - it's summer. Try to find edible weeds outside like broadleaf plantain, dandelions, geranium, filaree and so on. Check thetortoisetable.org.uk for a list of edible plants. Some supplemental pellets like Nutrazu or Hikari Mulberrific or, better, Agrobs Pre Alpine Testudo would be beneficial.

Thank you so much for all the help, you’ve shown me great kindness today. I believe i’m all set now. I’ve created a monthly plan for a better lifestyle for her. I’ll make sure to give updates on the progress. Let me know if theres anything else you believe i should change or do to make her life an amazing one.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you so much for all the help, you’ve shown me great kindness today. I believe i’m all set now. I’ve created a monthly plan for a better lifestyle for her. I’ll make sure to give updates on the progress. Let me know if theres anything else you believe i should change or do to make her life an amazing one.

You are welcome!
Yes, please keep us updated and ask more questions! You can check with us things you plan to order to be sure everything's is correct and not to overspend.

I haven't seen the water dish in the enclosure - make sure your tortoise has one. Non-glazed terracota saucers (used under plant pots), large enough for tortoise to get in and soak are the best, don't buy bowls from a pet store.

Soaking tortoise once-twice a week is also a good habit.

And another thing - with daily spot cleaning, regular soakings and time outdoors there is no need to replace substrate every month. From 6 months to 1-2 years is fine.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Sorry just caught up on all the responses, I’m glad you’ve found everything helpful! Definitely keep us in the loop with your progress, and absolutely any questions along the way, please do ask🥰

 

[Grxciea]

I am also quite curious on why mercury vapour, hallogen and coil bulbs are not very good for the tortoise? I am making the correct changes and following the advice but with an interest of reptile keeping when i am older it’d be really good to know the context behind this.

Also i forgot to clarify that Rhiannon is a Greek Spur Thighed tortoise. After looking at how many tortoises can be considered a ‘greek tortoise’.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I am also quite curious on why mercury vapour, hallogen and coil bulbs are not very good for the tortoise? I am making the correct changes and following the advice but with an interest of reptile keeping when i am older it’d be really good to know the context behind this.

Also i forgot to clarify that Rhiannon is a Greek Spur Thighed tortoise. After looking at how many tortoises can be considered a ‘greek tortoise’.

Hi!
Halogen lights often have beam width of 25 degrees. This results a narrow cone of very intensive heat and light desiccating tortoise shell and allowing for only partial heating. You want a basking zone 2-3 larger than your tortoise. Halogen lamp can be mounted higher to get a wider heated area, but this means that heat will be partially lost in the air and you will need a higher wattage bulb and tall terrarium or lamp stand. In terms of output spectrum they are the same as incandescent lamps.

Coil bulbs have rather weak output and to get optimal UVI 3-4 for tortoise you need to put the lamp really low and at small distances UVI fluctuates very much - half-inch difference results in UVI jumping from to 3-4 to 6-7 which is dangerous. Also, used reflector and type of installation (horizontal/vertical) can affect UV output considerably and not always in a predictable manner.

Mercury vapour bulbs are tricky to balance between required UV output, basking area size and temperature, you can't use separate timings for UVB and heating. UV output degrades quickly and lamps should be changed every 3 to 6 months. Also, they output excess IR-A which desiccates shell, especially new keratin growth.

Desiccation of tortoise shell results in pyramiding (which is pure cosmetic when all other husbandry elements are correct).

 

[Grxciea]

Hi!
Halogen lights often have beam width of 25 degrees. This results a narrow cone of very intensive heat and light desiccating tortoise shell and allowing for only partial heating. You want a basking zone 2-3 larger than your tortoise. Halogen lamp can be mounted higher to get a wider heated area, but this means that heat will be partially lost in the air and you will need a higher wattage bulb and tall terrarium or lamp stand. In terms of output spectrum they are the same as incandescent lamps.

Coil bulbs have rather weak output and to get optimal UVI 3-4 for tortoise you need to put the lamp really low and at small distances UVI fluctuates very much - half-inch difference results in UVI jumping from to 3-4 to 6-7 which is dangerous. Also, used reflector and type of installation (horizontal/vertical) can affect UV output considerably and not always in a predictable manner.

Mercury vapour bulbs are tricky to balance between required UV output, basking area size and temperature, you can't use separate timings for UVB and heating. UV output degrades quickly and lamps should be changed every 3 to 6 months. Also, they output excess IR-A which desiccates shell, especially new keratin growth.

Desiccation of tortoise shell results in pyramiding (which is pure cosmetic when all other husbandry elements are correct).

That make’s perfect sense thank you. Im honestly very surprised little Rhiannon doesn’t have bad pyramiding due to past mistakes. I believe there is a bit though. How would you say she looks health wise? Sorry for the question overload, my adhd is hyperfixated on getting all the information asap!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

It is hard to tell the health of a tortoise just from pictures, but I would say that your tortoise has an underbite. Does it trouble her when eating? If possible, some photos under the chin and straight up might help.

One thing that saves many tortoises from pyramiding, is that they come to a captive situation when they are already grown up.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

That make’s perfect sense thank you. Im honestly very surprised little Rhiannon doesn’t have bad pyramiding due to past mistakes. I believe there is a bit though. How would you say she looks health wise? Sorry for the question overload, my adhd is hyperfixated on getting all the information asap!

He has some pyramiding. And beak underbite. Could you make more photos of him under natural day light? Strict from the side and from the top.

 

[Grxciea]

That make’s perfect sense thank you. Im honestly very surprised little Rhiannon doesn’t have bad pyramiding due to past mistakes. I believe there is a bit though. How would you say she looks health wise? Sorry for the question overload, my adhd is hyperfixated on getting all the information asap!

It is hard to tell the health of a tortoise just from pictures, but I would say that your tortoise has an underbite. Does it trouble her when eating? If possible, some photos under the chin and straight up might help.

One thing that saves many tortoises from pyramiding, is that they come to a captive situation when they are already grown up.

Yeah she struggles a lot to break her food to swallow it and she struggles to eat, some days i have to resort to hand feeding.

 

[Grxciea]

He has some pyramiding. And beak underbite. Could you make more photos of him under natural day light? Strict from the side and from the top.

I’ve attached some photos a couple seconds ago hopefully in better daylight lighting with many angles. Let me know if anything else is needed

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I think he would benefit from trimming or filing the underbeak down at home or by a vet, so that she wouldn't struggle to eat anymore.

I would start gently filing the lower beak into a more natural shape, a little bit once a week until it's right. You can use a Dremmel tool. Because this is a genetic deformity, you may have to do this again every now and then her whole life. If you find the procedure hard, you could book a vet appointment for the first time and receive some hand on guidance there.

 

[zolasmum]

Also it would be good to put Rhiannon's food on a rough surface, so that she rubs her beak against it each time she picks up some food. A surface like stone or rough terracotta would probably work - especially if she had some of the beak filed off by the vet for the first time.
Angie

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I’ve attached some photos a couple seconds ago hopefully in better daylight lighting with many angles. Let me know if anything else is needed

I need a photo from the side to see carapace shape. On some of the photos it looks like he has a little depression on the back part of the carapace - this could be a sign of metabolic bone disease (as well as the underbite beak). It's not very severe anyway - otherwise it can be easily noticed.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I need a photo from the side to see carapace shape. On some of the photos it looks like he has a little depression on the back part of the carapace - this could be a sign of metabolic bone disease (as well as the underbite beak). It's not very severe anyway - otherwise it can be easily noticed.

Didn't notice that, yes apart from genetics MBD could be another cause for the underbite!

 

[Grxciea]

I’ve attached some photos a couple seconds ago hopefully in better daylight lighting with many angles

I need a photo from the side to see carapace shape. On some of the photos it looks like he has a little depression on the back part of the carapace - this could be a sign of metabolic bone disease (as well as the underbite beak). It's not very severe anyway - otherwise it can be easily noticed.

Oh lord thats quite scary. Is there anything i can do to further prevent it worsening or are my planned changes enough?
These photos arent in day lighting as there’s no sunlight where i am, i hope that is okay.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Mmm looking at the photos I would say there is potentially mbd present, but it’s very hard to say for sure.

The changes you plan to make will definitely help their overall condition, however there will be other things like enclosure size and correct UV/ (some outdoor UV in the meantime), that until they’re dealt with, won’t entirely improve the MBD side of things.. don’t let that discourage you from making the changes you plan on currently though!, any positive change is better than none right now!🙂

All aspects will need addressing eventually to give this guy the best possible chance to improve. I’m noticing their back nails are very long, which is likely due to lack of roaming room. Just do you’re absolute best for now to address the things you’re able to change at present, they will still help😊

 

[Grxciea]

Mmm looking at the photos I would say there is potentially mbd present, but it’s very hard to say for sure.

The changes you plan to make will definitely help their overall condition, however there will be other things like enclosure size and correct UV/ (some outdoor UV in the meantime), that until they’re dealt with, won’t entirely improve the MBD side of things.. don’t let that discourage you from making the changes you plan on currently though!, any positive change is better than none right now!🙂

All aspects will need addressing eventually to give this guy the best possible chance to improve. I’m noticing their back nails are very long, which is likely due to lack of roaming room. Just do you’re absolute best for now to address the things you’re able to change at present, they will still help😊

Yes lack of roaming room needs to be addressed so whilst im making dietry and lighting changes i am saving up to make a better space for her. Gonna DIY a bookshelf into a table. Roaming space as of now will be a lot of outside time until everything is sorted which will hopefully be sooner than later! Is MDB a life hindering issue? i want her to live a happy pain free life