Transporting Desert Tortoise + Legal Implications?

[CTP]

Hello! I'm a new user here, and this is my situation:

When I was a child, I had a friend whose brother had received a pet tortoise (from a pet store) for his birthday. But by then, it'd been a few years, and the brother no longer wanted it, and my family ended up taking the tortoise in.

In the beginning I didn't know much about the tortoise, but when I got older, I finally researched and realized that he is a Mojave desert tortoise and is classified as a Threatened species! (We are in the Northeast.)

The problem is that the tortoise is becoming very large, housing during cold months is becoming more and more difficult, and I am soon moving out and will be very limited in my ability to take care of him. I would really like to give him to someone else who would have more resources to accommodate him properly. I have a friend in California (closer to tortoise's probable home state) who would gladly take him in, but given that he is a Threatened species, it is (ironically) illegal to transport him over state lines? My family had no idea about this when we took him in so I don't have any sort of permit or registration for him either. I'm not sure what to do.

Any advice here would really be appreciated! Thank you!

 

[ascott]

In what approximate year this the tortoise in question acquired? What size is the tortoise now? Length? Please post a picture of the said tortoise. How has the tortoise been housed through good months and bad?

 

[Tom]

I've got the same questions as Angela.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I believe the laws changed in 1973. Ownership before that may be grandfathered as okay. I think. More will share soon.

 

[CTP]

He was definitely acquired before 1973 - maybe somewhere around the early 2005? I can't quite remember. Also, although he was smaller I have no way of knowing how old the tortoise was when we acquired him. I don't have a picture at the moment, but he's more than a foot long from head to tail and is proportionally heavy.

When he was small, he was housed in a tank w/ day/night bulbs etc. because that's how he came to us. When he got bigger, he would stay in the backyard during summer months (and would be given supplements of other types of greens), and during the winter, we'd take him back inside and keep him inside a large plastic bucket (with substrate, heating pads and light bulbs etc). Obviously not ideal, and this isn't something I want to do anymore.

 

[CTP]

I also just want to add the caveat that, now, I do understand that it is illegal for desert tortoises to be transferred outside their home states or to be sold, etc. and that they are the property of those states. I came to this forum because I'm confused about my situation, which is where apparently, many years ago, the selling of this tortoise from its home state has *already* happened. (Like I said, we're all the way in the Northeast.) And now we are living after the fact.

I do have someone in California who would absolutely be willing to take them, and if the tortoise could get there, then my friend could adopt him and his living situation would be legal (and healthier) etc. But of course, he can't cross state lines. So now that I know all of this, I'm really not sure what to do & would appreciate help.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

The first order of business is for you to post a picture of the tortoise so we can be sure we're talking about a desert tortoise.

Secondly, you have a discrepancy in your second post. The desert tortoises bought/captured prior to 1973 are considered "grandfathered." And you say you're sure this tortoise was bought prior to 1973, however, then you state that you think it was in 2005.

You are aware, aren't you, that desert tortoises can hibernate? If this truly IS a desert tortoise, there's no need for you to set him up in an indoor habitat. Just box him up in shredded newspaper and store him in a closet with the door shut, or on a shelf in the garage, for the winter. Just make sure the temperature where you store the box doesn't get down to freezing.

 

[Tom]

Also, if this tortoise is 8 years old (2005) and "more than a foot long", it is probably not a DT. More likely a sulcata. A pic will allow us to figure that out. If you go to tinypic.com, you can upload any size photo and then simply copy/paste the IMG code into your forum post.

About the illegality, IF it is a DT: How many times have you been stopped by a wildlife agency while driving on any highway, anywhere in the US? I drive cross country with animals at least 6 times a year for my job and have never been stopped anywhere. If you did get stopped, and by some miracle the person who stopped you was actually able to ID your tortoises species (very unlikely) you could simply tell them grandma (who is now deceased and so can't be charged with a crime) moved this tortoise out East in 1965 (no crime since it wasn't illegal back then), and you are righting a wrong by taking it back to its state of origin so it can be legally permitted and cared for. If they stop you while you are headed West, they are not going to bust you. If your were in another state headed East, you might have a problem, but most government officials do not want to bust someone who is trying to comply with the law AND do the right thing.

The not crossing state lines thing is intended to prevent people from moving them out of their state of origin, NOT to prevent them from being brought back after someone else moved them out. All law enforcement personnel get a big lecture on the "spirit" of the law vs. the "letter" of the law, while in the academy. Even though you might technically, arguably, be in violation of the letter of the law, you would be going to great expense and trouble to try and uphold the spirit of the law, and they would probably commend you and wish you a nice day.

 

[Millerlite]

I'm agreeing with rebel Tom on this one! I too am interested in a picture. It maybe a sulcata some sulcatas have coloring that can be confused with dts.


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

 

[ascott]

No one here wants you to feel bad for asking for some insight We ask questions so we can offer the best information collectively that we have....

As Yvonne said, the tort would fall under grandfather laws/regulations and you would not be in violation there...and a CDT that is no longer in its state does not fall under the california required permit--so you are fine there...

I am with Tom on this one, the Grandfathered Tort in route back to its homeland state with prospect of living out the remainder of its natural life, in its native state, set up in a private captive yard---hell, can not imagine a single person that would have a genuine argument....

I would let your Cali friend know to get started on arrangements and yard for the tort....

 

[Yvonne G]

Everyone, please keep in mind that it is against forum rules to talk about or encourage something illegal. The reason I've allowed those posts to stay is I'm pretty sure the tortoise is a sulcata, and it is not illegal to ship or move sulcatas across state lines.

 

[Tom]

Everyone, please keep in mind that it is against forum rules to talk about or encourage something illegal. The reason I've allowed those posts to stay is I'm pretty sure the tortoise is a sulcata, and it is not illegal to ship or move sulcatas across state lines.

Is it illegal to bring a CDT back to CA? I know its illegal to take it out of the state, but is it illegal to return it?

 

[nate.mann]

Everyone, please keep in mind that it is against forum rules to talk about or encourage something illegal. The reason I've allowed those posts to stay is I'm pretty sure the tortoise is a sulcata, and it is not illegal to ship or move sulcatas across state lines.

Is it illegal to bring a CDT back to CA? I know its illegal to take it out of the state, but is it illegal to return it?

just goes to show how much lawmakers REALLY care about the animals they make laws about..right?


0.1.0 Sonoran Desert Tortoise
0.0.1 Leopard Tortoise
1.0.0 Bluenose Pitbull/American Bulldog

 

[Millerlite]

Everyone, please keep in mind that it is against forum rules to talk about or encourage something illegal. The reason I've allowed those posts to stay is I'm pretty sure the tortoise is a sulcata, and it is not illegal to ship or move sulcatas across state lines.

Is it illegal to bring a CDT back to CA? I know its illegal to take it out of the state, but is it illegal to return it?

just goes to show how much lawmakers REALLY care about the animals they make laws about..right?


0.1.0 Sonoran Desert Tortoise
0.0.1 Leopard Tortoise
1.0.0 Bluenose Pitbull/American Bulldog

Do law makers Realllly care about animals? Idk I mean if your gonna do it now is best with the government **** down... Lol just kidding... But idk if it's illegal to bring it back into the state.


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

 

[nate.mann]

Everyone, please keep in mind that it is against forum rules to talk about or encourage something illegal. The reason I've allowed those posts to stay is I'm pretty sure the tortoise is a sulcata, and it is not illegal to ship or move sulcatas across state lines.

Is it illegal to bring a CDT back to CA? I know its illegal to take it out of the state, but is it illegal to return it?

just goes to show how much lawmakers REALLY care about the animals they make laws about..right?


0.1.0 Sonoran Desert Tortoise
0.0.1 Leopard Tortoise
1.0.0 Bluenose Pitbull/American Bulldog

Do law makers Realllly care about animals? Idk I mean if your gonna do it now is best with the government stuff down... Lol just kidding... But idk if it's illegal to bring it back into the state.


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

haha, there you go.


0.1.0 Sonoran Desert Tortoise
0.0.1 Leopard Tortoise
1.0.0 Bluenose Pitbull/American Bulldog

 

[CTP]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

The first order of business is for you to post a picture of the tortoise so we can be sure we're talking about a desert tortoise.

Secondly, you have a discrepancy in your second post. The desert tortoises bought/captured prior to 1973 are considered "grandfathered." And you say you're sure this tortoise was bought prior to 1973, however, then you state that you think it was in 2005.

You are aware, aren't you, that desert tortoises can hibernate? If this truly IS a desert tortoise, there's no need for you to set him up in an indoor habitat. Just box him up in shredded newspaper and store him in a closet with the door shut, or on a shelf in the garage, for the winter. Just make sure the temperature where you store the box doesn't get down to freezing.

Oh, whoops! I'm sorry. That was a typo -- I meant that he was definitely NOT acquired before 1973, so the grandfather clause wouldn't be in effect here.


And wait, really? He might be a sulcata?? Okay, I will get a picture of him by tomorrow, but how does this situation change if he's a sulcata? The thing is, I don't think a cross-country drive is possible any time soon for either me or my friend. That means if I wanted to give him to my friend (who I still think would be able to take better care than I could), I'd have to depend on third-party shipping measures. Any advice on how to do that (if he's a sulcata) would be great -- once I encountered the legal part of it, thinking he's a DT, I stopped short.

 

[Yvonne G]

Yes, it is illegal to take a desert tortoise across the state line...either going or coming. If the Department of Fish and Wildlife catches you at it, you get fined and the tortoise gets euthanized. So talking about ways to circumvent the rules and regulations is what shouldn't be done here on the forum.

You can ship a sulcata tortoise across the country legally. We do it all the time. Of course, the bigger/heavier the box is, the more costly it is. To ship a tiny hatchling in a small box that weighs about 3lbs costs around $50. Your best bet would be to find someone who is driving from there to here and is willing to take the tortoise with them.

Waiting for the picture (holding my breath)

 

[ascott]

Waiting for the picture (holding my breath)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y61/evengomer/10-12-13_zps060bbbaa.jpg

Oh nooooo, for goodness sake, please post a pic...quick

 

[CTP]

Sorry everyone -- I had a very busy weekend. But I have a picture of him now:

Now that you guys have informed me about sulcata tortoises, I realize he does look more like one of those. I can't believe all this time I thought he was a desert tortoise!

I'm not sure if you can gauge the size in that picture, but he is most definitely more than a foot long from head to tail.

So is he definitely a sulcata?

 

[OCTortoiseGuy]

What you have there is a Sulcata not a Desert tortoise. You can transport him anywhere. Good luck with his new home.