Underwater Sulcata!?

[Tortoisaurus]

Hello! I hope I’m doing this correctly, and not rehashing something already discussed.

I live in the Tampa area of Florida. We have a 15 month old Sulcata named Tortoisaurus who is living her very best life in her outdoor natural enclosure. She has a burrow she dug for herself that I simply reinforced just so nobody tending to her space didn’t accidentally step on it and cave it in. Anyhow it’s DEEP and she has done a great job creating her safe place. It keeps her cool during the heat and probably warm during the cold to come. (This is her first year outside obviously as she is now old enough to be safe.) for her daily soaks, sometimes I remove her and do it in a tub, but sometimes I’ll just water her hole and can see her soaking and drinking while it slowly drains.

However - with hurricane Idalia that came through, and a more recent downpour storm, her den becomes flooded almost instantly… and it will STAY flooded if the rain continues.

During Idalia, I was so worried I finally dug deep in there and grabbed her because I thought for certain she’d drown. I mean it must have been like an HOUR before I realized it was actually flooded already. She seemed to be kind of just “floating” which I found horrifying, but she seemed completely confused as to why I’d disturbed her slumber.

Then a storm last night, same thing. I mean - how long can they hold their breath?? Do I have to dig this poor bugger out of there every time it rains? She seems to have fairly good self-preservation skills otherwise, even has her “pooping corner” so as not to mess her whole enclosure.

I’m just hoping she knows what she’s doing because I tend to let nature do what it does if at all possible. If it downpours when I’m sleeping and she drowns, I’ll just die 😩

Thoughts? I posted a few of her enclosure and a few of her just being darling. 🐢
Thanks!

 

[SinLA]

@ZEROPILOT as resident FL expert

 

[ZEROPILOT]

@ZEROPILOT as resident FL expert

Thanks for thinking of me. But I do not keep any tortoises that dig into the ground.
Depending on the shape of the burrow, drowning or suffocating would seem very possible to me.
My tortoises enclosures are built in a part of the yard previously elevated about a foot. In an area of the yard that had already shown to not flood regularly. But like I said, my tortoises do not dig. They do 🏊‍♀️ swim

 

[Tortoisaurus]

Thanks for thinking of me. But I do not keep any tortoises that dig into the ground.
Depending on the shape of the burrow, drowning or suffocating would seem very possible to me.
My tortoises enclosures are built in a part of the yard previously elevated about a foot. In an area of the yard that had already shown to flood regularly

 

[Tortoisaurus]

Thanks for thinking of me. But I do not keep any tortoises that dig into the ground.
Depending on the shape of the burrow, drowning or suffocating would seem very possible to me.
My tortoises enclosures are built in a part of the yard previously elevated about a foot. In an area of the yard that had already shown to not flood regularly. But like I said, my tortoises do not dig. They do 🏊‍♀️ swim

I completely agree! I mean here anywhere COULD flood but as you can see I’ve provided a space with the brick high enough where even during the worst of flooding is high enough combined with an INCREDIBLY thirsty tree and surrounding ferns and banana trees that suck up tons of water quickly- so she HAS the higher ground option which she often utilizes for sunning. So she KNOWS it’s there, just doesn’t come out to use it when it’s most critical. Like literally everywhere BUT the den is pretty much dry enough to not drown in but she just chooses the one spot to chill that could kill her off. 🤦🏼‍♀️

 

[wellington]

@Tom
I believe if you let this continue she eventually will drown. The tunnel/hide should be made to not flood from rains. A hurricane or heavy tropical storm, you should pull her out too.
See what Tom says.

 

[TammyJ]

I agree with Wellington. It's an unnecessary risk.

 

[Tortoisaurus]

Thank you all very much. With all of the gopher tortoises living here naturally that burrow the same way, I assumed she’d have the same instincts to retreat to higher ground in the rain. I am going to put up a cover, but that will hider her sun exposure as well… but now she’s reached a point that she’s big enough not to fit through my main fencing so I should be able to expand her roaming area to include a covered “hill” and I’ll see if I can create a burrow there that she will utilize instead. Thus far she has yet to appreciate any kind of shelter I’ve added for her on my own… she prefers to dig her own holes and almost seems insulted with my modifications. She’s really funny and has such a personality - which I really didn’t expect from a tortoise to be honest! With the Florida water table being what it is, anything more than like 3” underground is susceptible to flooding so I guess I’ll have to “make mountains out of mole hills…” literally. 🤣🤦🏼‍♀️ Looks like it’s pouring again so she will be hanging in the house with us tonight. I just dug her out of there again and she seems SO UPSET every time I do it!! She has far outgrown her tortoise enclosure inside so I guess it’s a night in the bathroom and hopes that it can stop raining so I can fix this situation tomorrow, but in the meantime while she’s residing inside… may the poops be minimal. 🙏🏼

 

[Tom]

I’m just hoping she knows what she’s doing because I tend to let nature do what it does if at all possible.

With all of the gopher tortoises living here naturally that burrow the same way, I assumed she’d have the same instincts to retreat to higher ground in the rain.

They do not know what they are doing. This is not a wild tortoise, it is not in a wild area, and it is not in its native range. You must help it and do the right things, or it will not survive.

This is also not a temperate species, so the wet burrow keeping it warm in cold weather will not work. That will likely result in a respiratory infection and death.

First and foremost. your tortoise is far too small to be living outside full time, even in Tampa. They shouldn't be moved outside full time until around 10 inches or so.

When the tortoise does move outside, it needs an insulated heated shelter where the temperature is controlled by a thermostat.

Burrows are great for hot weather, but this species shouldn't drop below 80 at any time. That goes for adults too, but especially important for little babies. At his size, he is fine to be outside in warm weather during the day, but he should be sleeping indoors in a large closed chamber at night. Your burrow needs to be made in a such a way that it cannot flood. This is done with using the natural slopes of the land and also by covering the burrow entrance in one way or another to prevent rain from entering. In fall, the burrow should be blocked off, and tortoises living outside need to be made to use their heated shelter instead of the burrow.

Please give this a read, and look for the sulcata care sheet near the bottom.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[ryan57]

I agree with Wellington. It's an unnecessary risk.

I would get absolutely NOOO sleep. Could never do it. Even if my newly identified MALE sulcata grows to over 200lbs it will be indoors in my living room under cover @ 80 degrees or so from afternoon until morning every day. No more tortoise vacations and definitely no drowning holes. Geez. Between this and the story of rats indoors I'm logging off. If we had rats indoors my wife would be at the hotel and I'd have no dinner so... yeah, that's not happening. I did find a few rolled rugs in the garage that had evidence of some type of rodent so this year there will be glue traps in the garage.

 

[Tortoisaurus]

They do not know what they are doing. This is not a wild tortoise, it is not in a wild area, and it is not in its native range. You must help it and do the right things, or it will not survive.

This is also not a temperate species, so the wet burrow keeping it warm in cold weather will not work. That will likely result in a respiratory infection and death.

First and foremost. your tortoise is far too small to be living outside full time, even in Tampa. They shouldn't be moved outside full time until around 10 inches or so.

When the tortoise does move outside, it needs an insulated heated shelter where the temperature is controlled by a thermostat.

Burrows are great for hot weather, but this species shouldn't drop below 80 at any time. That goes for adults too, but especially important for little babies. At his size, he is fine to be outside in warm weather during the day, but he should be sleeping indoors in a large closed chamber at night. Your burrow needs to be made in a such a way that it cannot flood. This is done with using the natural slopes of the land and also by covering the burrow entrance in one way or another to prevent rain from entering. In fall, the burrow should be blocked off, and tortoises living outside need to be made to use their heated shelter instead of the burrow.

Please give this a read, and look for the sulcata care sheet near the bottom.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you for your reply. I have spent a lot of time researching how to care for her; including this article as it was one of the first recommendations when I came to the forum a year ago. I learned a LOT and take much care to see to it that she eats an appropriate diet, and maintains proper humidity and temperatures (I even have gauges placed in her den.) this summer has been humid as usual but a very dry season for us here rain-wise, so rain has not been an issue until Idalia, which was my first experience with realizing how much flooding potential there is in this particular spot. The spot is where it is to ensure that no neighboring pesticides will enter, that it’s safe from predators, etc.

I have her outside because local keepers advised that after a year old she could be outdoors as that’s what they did with theirs. Additionally I had massive issues indoors with maintaining proper humidity; and to avoid pyramiding and her stress from wanting to escape the enclosure despite it taking up most of the living room - this was the option I felt best suited her - and it worked, until it didn’t - which was during Idalia. For anyone insinuating that I’m a negligent monster, I sat outside in my gazebo which is next to her enclosure and monitored the weather and her reaction and instincts (or lack thereof) until 4am when I saw that the hole was no longer draining and removed her.

We had planned on moving by now, as we are renting and so massive upheavals in the home or yard aren’t an option or an exercise in futility if we find a home soon, but due to a near death surgical issue for me and my sick mother moving in with us, that has been postponed. If you see in the background of my picture, since Idalia I purchased a greenhouse that I will utilize for her safety, temperature and humidity management as the weather cools off, as that was concern since we hadn’t been thru a winter here with her outdoors yet and although it rarely rains in the winter, it still can be quite humid so respiratory issues did cross my mind. I just haven’t had the chance to seal it up and remove any potential hazards for her yet so that’s why I couldn’t use it tonight.

There are a lot of homeless, neglected and abandoned tortoises out there that would love to have a keeper that loves them and dotes on them and strives so hard for their well-being as I do. There hasn’t been a single day that has passed since I got her that she didn’t receive a soak and a well-balanced meal. I’ve spent countless hours trying to modify things to suit her best, which is why I’m here. It frustrates me when people come in making such snarky remarks like I’m some kind of savage, neglectful idiot carrying on with my selfish existence leaving this poor thing to drown. 🙄 More people would reach out for help to give their tortoises the best if they didn’t fear facing ridicule - so if the general well-being of tortoises overall is the concern of folks here commenting, perhaps a less degrading way of responding would be the way to go. (Not you Tom, but as I’m typing I can’t remember the other person who commented afterwards.)

Long story short, I realized the issue, couldn’t find anything online as to whether or not they DID remain underwater for some reason or another during storms so before I went and tore everything up and upset her I figured I’d check - for all I knew, someone could have said “oh yeah, they can hold their breath for hours etc.” I mean how would I know if I didn’t ask!? I used to live IN the desert in AZ, so I know that when it does rain, it massively floods - so for that to be a survival mechanism of a desert tortoise wouldn’t be too far fetched.

I tried to bring some smiles and some joy with my post while also addressing a serious issue - seeking advice and hoping to find some friendship in the community - figuring after a year of researching and doing what I thought was a pretty darn good job thus far I’d not look like such a noob moron, but instead I really just feel bad and defeated. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Hopefully someone enjoyed the lightheartedness.

I will keep working to modify things for her safety as promptly as possible. I appreciate the responses, knowledge and information.

Stay blessed!

 

[Tortoisaurus]

I would get absolutely NOOO sleep. Could never do it. Even if my newly identified MALE sulcata grows to over 200lbs it will be indoors in my living room under cover @ 80 degrees or so from afternoon until morning every day. No more tortoise vacations and definitely no drowning holes. Geez. Between this and the story of rats indoors I'm logging off. If we had rats indoors my wife would be at the hotel and I'd have no dinner so... yeah, that's not happening. I did find a few rolled rugs in the garage that had evidence of some type of rodent so this year there will be glue traps in the garage.

I’m not going to take your insult to heart - as you’re going to be sleeping with your tortoise and starving to death if your wife doesn’t cook your food for you… 🙄😒

 

[Tom]

I’m not going to take your insult to heart - as you’re going to be sleeping with your tortoise and starving to death if your wife doesn’t cook your food for you… 🙄😒

I don't think Ryan meant any insult. He too had a similar issue, and the other reference was to a sad thread today where another member's tortoises were killed by rats INSIDE their home.

No one meant you any insult, and I'm certain no one sees you as a monster. It is obvious that you care very much for your tortoise. There is just a lot of bad advice out in the world, like people telling you to move such a small tortoise outside so soon, and those of us who know better find it as frustrating as you do.

Ask the local people who told you to move the tortoise outside full time how many side-by-side experiments with groups of clutch mates they have done to come to their conclusion, and over how many years. Ask them what the growth rates were for the outdoor groups vs. indoor groups over multiple periods of 6-12 months. Ask them what the difference in pyramiding was. You'll probably get blank stares. People make a lot of assertions about how best to house tortoises, but few of them have done the homework to actually know, first hand, what techniques will yield what results. Little babies in warm climates can usually survive outdoor housing full time, but it is not "good" for them. They do MUCH better when housed correctly indoors. If you were having humidity troubles indoors, then you had the wrong type of enclosure. Indoors wasn't the problem. The open topped enclosure was the problem. Outdoors full time is not the solution, and that is why your tortoise is so small at its age. At 15 months, a slow grower should be over 1000 grams. Most will be closer to 1200-1500 grams. How much does your baby weigh?

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. Its fantastic that you care for your baby, and I want to help you do as good a job of it as you can. To do that, I have to share with you what I know works and what doesn't. Some people need more convincing, and that is okay. I expect no one to believe me just because I said so. I'm happy to explain how I reached these conclusions and what the results of more than a decade and a half of experiments have shown us.

Anyhow, I hope your baby stays safe, and feel free to ask questions or start conversations. I don't want you to feel attacked or ridiculed. You are a great tortoise owner. My delivery of tortoise care information tends to be blunt and to the point, and that is just a function of my personality. Great for some people who like a direct approach, but not so great for people who prefer a bit more finesse. So even if you don't care for the messenger or the delivery method, I hope the message still gets through and helps.

 

[Tortoisaurus]

I don't think Ryan meant any insult. He too had a similar issue, and the other reference was to a sad thread today where another member's tortoises were killed by rats INSIDE their home.

No one meant you any insult, and I'm certain no one sees you as a monster. It is obvious that you care very much for your tortoise. There is just a lot of bad advice out in the world, like people telling you to move such a small tortoise outside so soon, and those of us who know better find it as frustrating as you do.

Ask the local people who told you to move the tortoise outside full time how many side-by-side experiments with groups of clutch mates they have done to come to their conclusion, and over how many years. Ask them what the growth rates were for the outdoor groups vs. indoor groups over multiple periods of 6-12 months. Ask them what the difference in pyramiding was. You'll probably get blank stares. People make a lot of assertions about how best to house tortoises, but few of them have done the homework to actually know, first hand, what techniques will yield what results. Little babies in warm climates can usually survive outdoor housing full time, but it is not "good" for them. They do MUCH better when housed correctly indoors. If you were having humidity troubles indoors, then you had the wrong type of enclosure. Indoors wasn't the problem. The open topped enclosure was the problem. Outdoors full time is not the solution, and that is why your tortoise is so small at its age. At 15 months, a slow grower should be over 1000 grams. Most will be closer to 1200-1500 grams. How much does your baby weigh?

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. Its fantastic that you care for your baby, and I want to help you do as good a job of it as you can. To do that, I have to share with you what I know works and what doesn't. Some people need more convincing, and that is okay. I expect no one to believe me just because I said so. I'm happy to explain how I reached these conclusions and what the results of more than a decade and a half of experiments have shown us.

Anyhow, I hope your baby stays safe, and feel free to ask questions or start conversations. I don't want you to feel attacked or ridiculed. You are a great tortoise owner. My delivery of tortoise care information tends to be blunt and to the point, and that is just a function of my personality. Great for some people who like a direct approach, but not so great for people who prefer a bit more finesse. So even if you don't care for the messenger or the delivery method, I hope the message still gets through and helps.

Thank you! This really helps me feel much better. She is actually probably 13 months, as I joined last august and she was a hatchling. But only 500 grams! Earlier on she was gaining weight MUCH too fast and started getting fat, and thanks to your post I really started to limit how much and WHAT I was giving her. I got her weight on track, so kind of stopped monitoring it since being outside, she just grazes and eats Bermuda grass all day in addition to her regular food. I didn’t realize having her outdoors would keep her SMALL - all this time I was just worried about her getting fat! The people here that have the outdoor sulcatas have an exotic animal ranch, so they have them but also kangaroos and sloths and all sorts of crazy animals. I guess I figured she knew what she was talking about because they’re all enormous with absolutely no pyramiding.

So is the biggest thing the consistency in temperature and humidity? Now I’m worried about rats too, as I found that post as well. As a matter of fact, her enclosure is a bit bare of the regular grass, as I needed to remove it because we’d noticed some rat activity. I never dreamed in a million years a rat would eat a tortoise - small or big! Anyway - I ask about the temp/humidity thing because I also house and raise rare plants from around the world - and do so quite successfully in the greenhouses. So since I have the one now specifically for her (and whichever plants I can set on a table that will utilize the same requirements) would that be sufficient? Until we get out of this house, we just don’t have a realistic amount of space for the indoor enclosure she’d need. She (and the plants, and the chameleon, AND the bearded dragon) used to have the room that my mom is living in now. The chameleon and bearded dragon utilize much more vertical space and require less horizontal space, so it was easier to make the indoor life work for them.

All it took was a few rains and a slight drop in temperature for me to realize how having her outside absolutely won’t work anyway - but now hearing all this new info about rats and her being too small, I need to get to work on the next step, like, now. I know within 24 hours I can get temps and humidity regulated in the greenhouse, and the only thing that would be lacking would be the proper UVB lighting inside for a while until i figured that part out, but of course it is a greenhouse so there will be gently filtered light and she’d still be able to go out for her direct sunshine during the day.

I am very glad I came to ask. I truly thought since she smoothed out in all the humidity, got so much natural sun and got to free-graze on grass that she had it so much better than she ever could in an indoor enclosure. 😩

 

[Tom]

Thank you! This really helps me feel much better. She is actually probably 13 months, as I joined last august and she was a hatchling. But only 500 grams! Earlier on she was gaining weight MUCH too fast and started getting fat, and thanks to your post I really started to limit how much and WHAT I was giving her. I got her weight on track, so kind of stopped monitoring it since being outside, she just grazes and eats Bermuda grass all day in addition to her regular food. I didn’t realize having her outdoors would keep her SMALL - all this time I was just worried about her getting fat! The people here that have the outdoor sulcatas have an exotic animal ranch, so they have them but also kangaroos and sloths and all sorts of crazy animals. I guess I figured she knew what she was talking about because they’re all enormous with absolutely no pyramiding.

So is the biggest thing the consistency in temperature and humidity? Now I’m worried about rats too, as I found that post as well. As a matter of fact, her enclosure is a bit bare of the regular grass, as I needed to remove it because we’d noticed some rat activity. I never dreamed in a million years a rat would eat a tortoise - small or big! Anyway - I ask about the temp/humidity thing because I also house and raise rare plants from around the world - and do so quite successfully in the greenhouses. So since I have the one now specifically for her (and whichever plants I can set on a table that will utilize the same requirements) would that be sufficient? Until we get out of this house, we just don’t have a realistic amount of space for the indoor enclosure she’d need. She (and the plants, and the chameleon, AND the bearded dragon) used to have the room that my mom is living in now. The chameleon and bearded dragon utilize much more vertical space and require less horizontal space, so it was easier to make the indoor life work for them.

All it took was a few rains and a slight drop in temperature for me to realize how having her outside absolutely won’t work anyway - but now hearing all this new info about rats and her being too small, I need to get to work on the next step, like, now. I know within 24 hours I can get temps and humidity regulated in the greenhouse, and the only thing that would be lacking would be the proper UVB lighting inside for a while until i figured that part out, but of course it is a greenhouse so there will be gently filtered light and she’d still be able to go out for her direct sunshine during the day.

I am very glad I came to ask. I truly thought since she smoothed out in all the humidity, got so much natural sun and got to free-graze on grass that she had it so much better than she ever could in an indoor enclosure. 😩

The green house sounds okay, and you know the parameters to aim for, so it should work.

They can go months with no UV at all because they store it. You can also use a calcium supplement with D3 in it to meet their needs. Occasional sunshine once or twice a week will keep your tortoise healthy and free of any sort of metabolic bone disease too. They don't need full sun all day every day, and they don't need high power indoor UV tubes all day long either. A little goes a long way.

Questions and conversation are always welcome here. Please feel free to ask anything any time.

 

[wellington]

I would get absolutely NOOO sleep. Could never do it. Even if my newly identified MALE sulcata grows to over 200lbs it will be indoors in my living room under cover @ 80 degrees or so from afternoon until morning every day. No more tortoise vacations and definitely no drowning holes. Geez. Between this and the story of rats indoors I'm logging off. If we had rats indoors my wife would be at the hotel and I'd have no dinner so... yeah, that's not happening. I did find a few rolled rugs in the garage that had evidence of some type of rodent so this year there will be glue traps in the garage.

An adult sulcata sleeping in your house is not the answer, not the proper way. . A proper hide or shed with a door that can be shut and locked is. Put in every night, let out every day.

 

[ryan57]

An adult sulcata sleeping in your house is not the answer, not the proper way. . A proper hide or shed with a door that can be shut and locked is. Put in every night, let out every day.

What is really your house when you have plans for a detached glass conservatory w koi pond and two tortoise boxes built in to the sides? The only difference is a finished floor where it is not the tortoise box floor. It’s all your house but I get what you’re saying.

 

[Tortoisaurus]

The green house sounds okay, and you know the parameters to aim for, so it should work.

They can go months with no UV at all because they store it. You can also use a calcium supplement with D3 in it to meet their needs. Occasional sunshine once or twice a week will keep your tortoise healthy and free of any sort of metabolic bone disease too. They don't need full sun all day every day, and they don't need high power indoor UV tubes all day long either. A little goes a long way.

Questions and conversation are always welcome here. Please feel free to ask anything any time.

Awesome!! Thanks so much! It’s coming along NICELY - better than I expected! I’ll post some pictures before I finish if there’s anything I’m missing or hazards I haven’t noticed! Thanks again so much for your help. I feel so much better now knowing what I know thanks to you. Tortoisaurus has to be healthy and have the optimal conditions so she can outlive me and then not only be a bother to my kids when I die, but maybe their kids as well. 😆