Unusual carapace

[Tom]

You could always x-ray him to test the missing rib theory.

I don't resize my pics on tinypic. It does it automatically. I just upload 5-7MB pics and it prepares them for posting here.

Bummer about the space limitations. I guess that's the price of living in paradise. I have to say, land isn't much cheaper here in Southern California here either.

I'm glad you decided to join us. Your insight will be good for all of us to learn from.

 

[Laura]

all 16 sulcatas are in a space that small?? Do they get a long? I think I would re home a couple and give the others more room.. I have to agree onthe breeding thing.. If you allow it dont allow the eggs to hatch. Im sure things there are different then here,, but we just dont need a bunch of Rescue animals breeding more to be rescued..
I love hearing how others do it, husbandry etc. and still come out ok. There is not One Way to raise a tort etc.. whatever works for you and the critters..
Would love seeing pics of your set up and of course your area where you live.. Never been there..
and of course WELCOME!

 

[KenG]

Laura, I have five small-to-medium Sulcatas in quarantine, Kong & four large females in 2/3 of the enclosure, & one male & five small-to-medium females in the other 1/3. No territoriality problems to date. At feeding time, they sometimes pile on each other, but that hasn't caused any aggressive behavior. I do have to keep males well apart, but Linda & I rescue about one male for every 5-6 females, so that hasn't been a problem. We do bring the smaller torts out when we're working in the yard, & they help us with the grass. We also watch them then to see what other nearby plants they eat. They really like orchids, but Linda would kill me if I started feeding those to the torts. They also like our heliconia & ti, & we toss some of those in for them on occasion. That's how we found they like kudzu.

As for rehoming, we haven't found many local people who can adequately care for Sulcatas. Remember that houses out here are about half the size, on average, as you'll find back on the mainland. The median size for a 3-bedroom house in my neighborhood is about 1200 square feet on a 5500 sqft lot, & sells for $755,000. And half the population lives in condos or apartments...not exactly the best place for a Sulcata, don't you think ? We do donate to our zoos when our Sulcatas get really big, & I would probably rehome to a school or other institution that requested a mascot, or something similar, but we'd definitely check them out beforehand to ensure they know what they're getting into & are willing to keep them well-fed & in good health. We never sell our rescues, by the way.

As mentioned, we've rescued several dozen eggs from our Sulcatas, but none have hatched so far. Our incubator does double duty because we also raise macaws for sale. I'm going to post a poll sometime soon because I've found that, at least out here, if a person has a tortoise, he or she almost always has a parrot, too. I guess that's because we like long-lived companions.

As far as where we live, Linda & I got very lucky when we moved our company headquarters out here 20 years ago, & found a large house which is now 3500 sqft on 1/4 acre. We couldn't afford our house today! We're convinced that we live in the best area of Hawaii because we have trade winds 90% of the time, an average low temperature of 72F & an average high of 82F - & that's year-round! It's so temperate that we have no heating or cooling in our home. According to my digital weather system, we average 48 inches of rain each year, which keeps everything nice & green (except in the enclosure where any blade of grass gets eaten instantly). We live across the street from Kaneohe Bay, which turns into the Pacific Ocean about four miles out. We have a pontoon boat that we moor in the bay, & we just walk out to it when we want to go boating or fishing, often taking along a cat or parrot. Pretty ideal, both for us & our furred, feathered, & scaly friends.

And thanks to all for the welcomes.

 

[chadk]

Sounds perfect. If my dad still lived in Maui, i'd have to see about visiting you and your torts next time I visited. But now that he moved back here, I doubt I'll be in the area anytime soon...

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Holy cow, what a thread!

Are any torts native to Hawaii? Obviously, Sulcata were brought there from the mainland, but how the heck could anyone afford to transport them back so they could be adopted by people who have more land?

I guess I'm just wondering why you would want ANY eggs when they have so little chance of ever having a decent standard of living? How the heck do so many of them end up in your rescue? I am surprised that Hawaiians would breed Sulcata at all considering the average circumstances of the residents there. What lucky dogs you are, though, to have such a comfy house and climate and a herd of Sulcatas grazing in your back yard!!

Like everyone else, I'm looking forward to photos. I have to admit that first one made me cringe--poor guy! That is the strangest shell I've ever seen.

 

[KenG]

No torts native to Hawaii, I'm afraid. But Linda & I see plenty of "honu" (pronounced hoe'-new, Pacific green sea turtles) every time we head out on our boat in Kaneohe Bay. These range from little guys about the size of a dinner plate, all the way up to real monsters that weigh many hundreds of pounds. There are actually seven species of sea turtles, but we've only seen five: honu (Chelonia mydas), hawksbill (called 'ea, Eretmochelys imbricata), leatherback (Dermochelys coriacea), loggerheads, & Ridleys. All but the honu are considered endangered species.

We actually did a rescue on a hawksbill a few years ago. We saw splashing in the water near the Sand Bar in K-Bay, & motored over to see what it was. The turtle had obviously been hit by a boat's propeller, so we carefully towed it to the Sand Bar where three of us were able to lift it onto our boat. There's a honu rescue group of vets who volunteer when a turtle is injured, & most of us know their phone number; they met us at the Harbormaster's & took the hawksbill off to be treated. I heard a few weeks later that we got to her in time, & that she would be in recovery at Sea Life Park for a few years; we visited her twice before she was dropped back off just outside the bay.

Stephanie, that's a good question about breeding Sulcatas out here. My only answer is that people have no bloody idea that this cute little 3" tortoise is going to be pushing down their walls in a few years, so breeders keep on selling them to pet shops. I'm sure it's not all that different where you live, but most of us with tortoises probably never think about rescuing others from the pound, Humane Society, & other possible sources (hint, hint!). I know several breeders who live within a few miles who make a very nice living selling keiki (babies) to pet shops.

But you asked why Hawaiians in particular buy them, right? Well, you're going to get a slightly longer answer than you might expect, based on Hawaiian culture. Native Hawaiian (about 15% of our population) families consider themselves to have an Aumakua, or guardian spirit that guides them through life, & are also viewed as the embodiment of their ancestors. Don't get me wrong, Stephanie - they don't really believe in them as totems, but do prefer to have their aumakuas in their lives. There are Hawaiian legends which say that turtles were the first to guide the Polynesians to the Hawaiian islands, & as the only indigenous reptile, honu are certainly the most popular aumakua. Others include the shark (manō), owl (pueo), crow (ʻalalā), lizard or dragon (moʻo), & even the mouse (ʻiole liʻiliʻi). Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumakua for more info. So you can see why Hawaiians find tortoises - & box turtles - to be such attractive pets; at least box turtles don't grow very large, & we rescue only 2-3 each year.

Here are a couple of photos to get started; if you look in the lower right corner of each pic, I've put a description):

These two Sulcatas were rescued from a lady who also had 41 cats & 23 dogs, & had likely been raised on dog & cat food

We found Pele walking down the road not far from our house; she's a pretty juvenile Pardalis

Not sure why these two females were humping, but they obviously needed some guidance

Typical feeding time frenzy

A sunny day for tortoises

 

[terracolson]

my oh my

 

[motero]

I would do what ever I could to get those torts some more space, and I wouldn't adopt any more if that was all the space I had.

 

[KenG]

I'm not adopting, I'm rescuing. Again, we haven't seen any signs of aggression or territoriality - what other problems would you foresee?

 

[Meg90]

Errrr, not to be tooo blunt but maybe them living in their own feces and you getting eaten out of house and home because there is ZERO grazing space??

 

[KenG]

Good point, Meg, but we get enough rain to wash away the feces several times each week, & in a dry spell, we hose the enclosure out weekly. No illnesses in the past 10 years.

A friend provides us with a bale of Timothy & alfalfa hay when we need it, & the local Safeway supermarket gives us their greens, fruits, & vegetables discards. We have to haul these things, but no real out-of-pocket expenses except for vet tests.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've stayed out of this discussion because I believe in "to each his own," but the picture in my mind "...rain washes away the feces..." just begs a comment from me.

Healthy sulcata poop is similar to dog poop. It is firm and well-formed. There's no way the rain would wash it away. It is like large pellets. You have to pick it up and dispose of it. I'm thinking that if your sulcatas' poop is that loose that it can be hosed away, your tortoises' diet is not correct.

 

[KenG]

That just tells me you haven't experienced tropical rain, Yvonne. We can get an inch of rain in 10 minutes, followed by clear skies!

In all seriousness, the torts' feces do not accumulate in the enclosure. Although I seldom discuss the details of feces, in the big torts' area, their poops are about fist-sized, with the consistency of horse manure (lots of visible fiber), while the smaller torts' are more pelletized, as you stated. And please remember that I do have samples checked every couple of months by our vet. They're a remarkably healthy herd, especially considering that nearly all of them have been rescued.

 

[chadk]

Clearly not ideal - but considering that these torts would probably be dead if Ken did not take them in, I'm not sure what a better alternative would be. Getting animals in and out of Hawaii isn't exactly easy. They look healthy. Surely they would love more room to roam and graze, but that doesn't sound like it is going to happen.

 

[KenG]

I'd love to live on a couple of acres out here so the torts can roam, but I don't see that happening. We moved here from southern Louisiana where our 4,000 square-foot house & 3+ acres of land cost us $75,000. When we moved here, the $90K we got for that paid-off house wasn't enough for a down-payment! And property values have at least tripled over the past 20 years.

Everyone spends a lot of time outdoors year-round in Hawaii - big surprise - so houses & yards can be smaller. And I'll admit we've gotten used to that over 20 years. I'm sure our tortoises would prefer large grassy/weedy areas to roam, but you've gotta' admit that lying around in the sun with a reliable source of suitable food is preferable to being stuck in someone's 850 sqft condo or 50 sqft lanai (patio) being fed those colorful "turtle feed" pellets out of a jar.

Case in point: I just had a knock on my door, & a smiling policeman handed me a nice female Sulcata that was found wandering around a dirt & rock lot a few miles away. Here's her photo:

I gently washed her off, & it was obvious that she's dehydrated & very dirty. She first wiped gunk from both eyes, & then drank & drank - fairly unusual for Sulcatas. Her plastron length is 12-1/4 inches, & I'm guessing that she weighs about 8-10 pounds (I'll weigh her when she gets done drinking). I think it's great that Linda & I are well-enough known for tortoise rescues that even the police are willing to bring abandoned torts to us! I hope she's healthy so that after 60 days in quarantine, we can add her to the mid-sized herd. What do you think would have happened to her if we weren't around? (Think squashed tort in the road....)

Chad, you do have a good point on getting animals into Hawaii. When we do mainland rescues, we need to get a health certificate from a local vet, as well as a checkup by the vets at the airport with a minimum $60 handling fee. And then we have to keep them "enclosed" for at least 120 days (I'm not sure what they'd expect us to do after that...). That's why breeders can do so well out here. Getting animals out of Hawaii is no problem as long as you have the appropriate cage; no permits required.

 

[TylerStewart]

I'll pay the shipping if you crate up and ship me a bunch of pretty females......

 

[KenG]

Sure, Tyler. I'll swap you a few for your Aldabra - we've always wanted one of them for ourselves.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I'd love to live on a couple of acres out here so the torts can roam, but I don't see that happening. We moved here from southern Louisiana where our 4,000 square-foot house & 3+ acres of land cost us $75,000. When we moved here, the $90K we got for that paid-off house wasn't enough for a down-payment! And property values have at least tripled over the past 20 years.

Everyone spends a lot of time outdoors year-round in Hawaii - big surprise - so houses & yards can be smaller. And I'll admit we've gotten used to that over 20 years. I'm sure our tortoises would prefer large grassy/weedy areas to roam, but you've gotta' admit that lying around in the sun with a reliable source of suitable food is preferable to being stuck in someone's 850 sqft condo or 50 sqft lanai (patio) being fed those colorful "turtle feed" pellets out of a jar.

Case in point: I just had a knock on my door, & a smiling policeman handed me a nice female Sulcata that was found wandering around a dirt & rock lot a few miles away. Here's her photo:

I gently washed her off, & it was obvious that she's dehydrated & very dirty. She first wiped gunk from both eyes, & then drank & drank - fairly unusual for Sulcatas. Her plastron length is 12-1/4 inches, & I'm guessing that she weighs about 8-10 pounds (I'll weigh her when she gets done drinking). I think it's great that Linda & I are well-enough known for tortoise rescues that even the police are willing to bring abandoned torts to us! I hope she's healthy so that after 60 days in quarantine, we can add her to the mid-sized herd. What do you think would have happened to her if we weren't around? (Think squashed tort in the road....)

Chad, you do have a good point on getting animals into Hawaii. When we do mainland rescues, we need to get a health certificate from a local vet, as well as a checkup by the vets at the airport with a minimum $60 handling fee. And then we have to keep them "enclosed" for at least 120 days (I'm not sure what they'd expect us to do after that...). That's why breeders can do so well out here. Getting animals out of Hawaii is no problem as long as you have the appropriate cage; no permits required.

Do you not try to find her owners before you automatically decide to keep her? You don't have enough room for the animals you have now, you don't have room for more. She would be much better off if you would either find her keepers or you adopt her out to someone with more room. You have a quick come back for every comment or question that the forum members throw at you. But the bottom line is those animals would be better off if you adopted them out. I have one 80 pound Sulcata who lives in much more room then you have for your "mid sized herd", and I don't think he has enough room. If someone knocked on my door with a lost tortoise I know that I don't have room for more. Find the owners or find another forever home. It just doesn't take too much to see that you don't have enough room for the animals you have let alone accepting more. I realize you are trying to do the right thing. But the right thing for them would be a home with more room.

 

[motero]

Sure, Tyler. I'll swap you a few for your Aldabra - we've always wanted one of them for ourselves.

Where would you fit an Aldabra ???

-what other problems would you foresee?

Escape attempts, hence your need to wire the floors.

 

[KenG]

Maggie, I can see that you & I will have to agree to disagree - I would much rather rescue a tortoise than have it wander off to be injured or killed.

How would you expect me to find the owner of a tort that was abandoned in a vacant lot in the boonies??

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Tyler, please e-mail me directly at [email protected]. No need to have this public. Thanks!