Very stunted growth

[emergeartistry]

We took over the care of our tortoise Schmidt a few weeks ago, from a family member who was moving out of the country. It’s wild, we were told she’s either a Sonoran desert tortoise or a Sulcata and we have an appointment coming up with the vet and a tortoise specialist soon to try to get it sorted out.

They know for a fact that she is at least nine years old. They’ve got photos of her going back that far. By that estimate she should be rather large. But she looks like a baby. They kept her in a very small enclosure, and the poor thing is literally only about 6 inches in length.

They did everything else right, she had regular soaks, a very balanced and varied diet mixed w/ lots of local plants (Arizona), enrichment, she had a burrow in her very small area, and access to water regularly, received plenty of UV light and calcium. They said her last vet visit was this past winter and she has no sign of MBD.

That being said, she is incredibly tiny like I said.

So now we have a dilemma and I’m not sure what to do. She is so small for her age that she’s hard to keep track of and very vulnerable to coyotes who can easily hop the fence into backyards in Arizona. I know so many people whose small pet tortoises have been either harmed by them or killed.

So we constructed a coop for her that’s about three times the size of the one that she was in originally, lots more room to roam around, but still not free roaming.

At this point, at 9 or 10 years old, will she even grow larger or is this it for the rest of her life? They couldn’t remember exactly how old she was but like I said they have photos going back at least nine or 10 years so he said his guess is that she is 9 to 11 years old.

Also, now I feel torn, I know that keeping her in the very very small enclosure is likely the thing that stunted her growth, but I’m worried about just giving her free roam of the yard if she’s going to be permanently small, because she’s at such a higher risk of harm from coyotes or bobcats.

The run that she has now is about five or 6 foot long and about four or 5 foot wide with lots of grass and dirt and gravel, and a burrow and a mini soaking pool, and a shaded area. We are in the process of building something even bigger, but this is infinitely larger than what she came to us in and it was pre-assembled, so we’re just using it through the hottest part of the summer so we can construct something larger this fall.

Sorry for the poor quality photo

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum! Bless you for taking this tortoise in❤️

Wow she does look like a very tiny sulcata😳but wait for other members to ID! It’s not my strong point. Let me tag these guys @Tom @Yvonne G

Whilst you’re here I don’t suppose we could get a photo of the full enclosure you currently have her in?

Even if she does remain on the smaller side, a large outdoor set up will be best for her, you’ll probably find she might start growing a bit with correct care. You just need to make sure your area is very secure to keep predators out, a secure night box is probably a good idea too🙂don’t let her free roam outside of a secure enclosure because like you say, it’s never risk free, go as large as you possibly can for the enclosure, let it take up the yard if you can lol. If you’re somewhere hot make sure there’s lots of shady areas for her to choose from😊
I’d be careful about gravel, tortoise have been know to eat it which causes impaction, I’d remove it👍

 

[wellington]

She does look to be a sulcata. A better pic would help,but if bet on her being a sulcata
Very sad that the previous owners thought it was okay to house a tortoise in such a small enclosure.
Give her the space needed, a good diet that includes mazuri tortoise food and she should grow and catch up.
A fenced chicken coop or dog run should help with wild animals.
Leave her out during the day with lots of shade, sprinklers or misters and bring her in at night.
But get her the room she needs.
If she seems healthy otherwise, I would pass on the vet visit. Reptile specialist usually don't know about tortoises.

 

[Ink]

Welcome to the forum. Thank you for helping this tortoise.

 

[emergeartistry]

She does look to be a sulcata. A better pic would help,but if bet on her being a sulcata
Very sad that the previous owners thought it was okay to house a tortoise in such a small enclosure.
Give her the space needed, a good diet that includes mazuri tortoise food and she should grow and catch up.
A fenced chicken coop or dog run should help with wild animals.
Leave her out during the day with lots of shade, sprinklers or misters and bring her in at night.
But get her the room she needs.
If she seems healthy otherwise, I would pass on the vet visit. Reptile specialist usually don't know about tortoises.

Awesome, thank you both so much for the information! We actually do have her in a chicken coop right now, I just measured it and it’s 6‘ x 5‘. But like I said, this is just a temporary one for the next month or two and as soon as it cools down, we’re gonna go outside and build a much larger one. We are also moving in September so figure this will suffice for a couple months and then we can get her something much larger set up. But the one that she was in before was only 3‘ x 2‘ so this is at least a lot bigger than that.

It was my cousin’s son who had the tortoise, he was only around 11 or 12 when he adopted her and his mom has a lot of mental health issues so he really did do the best he could for a kid. Nobody really even knew what type of tortoise it was until he needed to rehome her and then we were like oh my God, You had that tortoise in that tiny space for all these years?!

The good news is that anyone that knows about tortoises and has seen her so far does seem to think that she’s quite healthy. Like I said, she did have good access to a lot of different types of food and sunlight and regular access to water and soaking.

I read a lot of the stunted growth posts in here, but they all tended to be tortoises that were around one to three years old, I wasn’t able to find anything that showed a tortoise this old who was quite so tiny. So we just weren’t sure if she’s even capable of growing anymore at around 10 years old. I’ll see if I can get a better photo later today when I’m back home.

 

[emergeartistry]

Hello and welcome to the forum! Bless you for taking this tortoise in❤️

Wow she does look like a very tiny sulcata😳but wait for other members to ID! It’s not my strong point. Let me tag these guys @Tom @Yvonne G

Whilst you’re here I don’t suppose we could get a photo of the full enclosure you currently have her in?

Even if she does remain on the smaller side, a large outdoor set up will be best for her, you’ll probably find she might start growing a bit with correct care. You just need to make sure your area is very secure to keep predators out, a secure night box is probably a good idea too🙂don’t let her free roam outside of a secure enclosure because like you say, it’s never risk free, go as large as you possibly can for the enclosure, let it take up the yard if you can lol. If you’re somewhere hot make sure there’s lots of shady areas for her to choose from😊
I’d be careful about gravel, tortoise have been know to eat it which causes impaction, I’d remove it👍

OK, this is all really great information! And I did read through that new members post with all the care information. We’re definitely going to implement a lot of the things suggested in it, but we were happy to get confirmation that the previous owner was at least doing a lot correct with proper soaking and access to water and sunlight and a good varied diet. I Think she is literally just the tiniest little thing because of how small her space was. Now she didn’t spend her entire life in there, he said he would sit outside with her regularly at the park or the backyard and let her free roam and she would even free roam inside the house a lot during the cooler months before she hibernated. So I mean she didn’t have a terrible life, but she definitely didn’t have anywhere close to adequate space. We are just really happy to be able to give her more room. And to keep her in the family since he is very emotionally attached to her.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

It’s funny this should come up, although we have a completely different species with completely different growth rates, our red foot should have been full grown years ago, she too was kept in way too small an enclosure for too long before we met, now we have her in something bigger, she has growth lines for the first time in years! Shes around 13 years old so it’s very unusual for her to be growing, but when they’ve been stunted, once husbandry is corrected, it’s not impossible for them to continue growing some🙂

 

[emergeartistry]

It’s funny this should come up, although we have a completely different species with completely different growth rates, our red foot should have been full grown years ago, she too was kept in way too small an enclosure for too long before we met, now we have her in something bigger, she has growth lines for the first time in years! Shes around 13 years old so it’s very unusual for her to be growing, but when they’ve been stunted, once husbandry is corrected, it’s not impossible for them to continue growing some🙂

That’s good to know, I’m glad to hear yours has started growing! The tortoise specialist who we talked with in Phoenix said he has seen some that are around 8 or 9 inch Sulcatas but he’s never seen one this old, be so tiny so he said he really can’t say for sure if she would grow or not he’s like it’s just kind of up to her and her body and biology. He said if she’s healthy, it shouldn’t have any major impact on her lifespan other than making her more susceptible to predators at that size so we have to take more care to keep her safe which we are doing. Just kind of crazy how little she is based on my research how big she should be if she truly is around 10 or so.

 

[wellington]

Yes, I had a very stunted leopard I rescued. He was the same age as the leopard I already had, but so much smaller. Once I had him for a while, gave him proper room and diet, he not only caught up in size with my original one, but passed him up.
So, it can most definitely happen and be reversed. Just depends on care, big enough enclosure size, duet and they should grow. Might not ever get the size they should be, but that's a wait and see.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

OK, this is all really great information! And I did read through that new members post with all the care information. We’re definitely going to implement a lot of the things suggested in it, but we were happy to get confirmation that the previous owner was at least doing a lot correct with proper soaking and access to water and sunlight and a good varied diet. I Think she is literally just the tiniest little thing because of how small her space was. Now she didn’t spend her entire life in there, he said he would sit outside with her regularly at the park or the backyard and let her free roam and she would even free roam inside the house a lot during the cooler months before she hibernated. So I mean she didn’t have a terrible life, but she definitely didn’t have anywhere close to adequate space. We are just really happy to be able to give her more room. And to keep her in the family since he is very emotionally attached to her.

Hello!
*If* she can be a sulcata tortoise (if there is no thin scute just behind her neck - a wire on the photo is just over it) then it's important to know - this species is not hibernating (brumating). In extreme cold they can enter dormant state but it's harmful and dangerous. They must be kept awake and warm through the winter.

So if she has been "hibernated" before - this will explain much of her growth stunt. It was a series of "emergency shutdowns" affecting gut flora and overall health.

On the bright side of the things - with a good care she should start growing again. It's great that you have stepped in for her and making her life better.

If you have more photos of her where shell is clearly seen - please post.

 

[emergeartistry]

Hello!
*If* she can be a sulcata tortoise (if there is no thin scute just behind her neck - a wire on the photo is just over it) then it's important to know - this species is not hibernating (brumating). In extreme cold they can enter dormant state but it's harmful and dangerous. They must be kept awake and warm through the winter.

So if she has been "hibernated" before - this will explain much of her growth stunt. It was a series of "emergency shutdowns" affecting gut flora and overall health.

On the bright side of the things - with a good care she should start growing again. It's great that you have stepped in for her and making her life better.

If you have more photos of her where shell is clearly seen - please post.

OK, so that’s interesting that you said that, I was just texting with her previous owner and she said that he felt like he used the hibernate phrase a little bit recklessly. He said that he never stopped giving her access to food or water and she would eat and drink regularly, but she was just less active in the Arizona winter when it was colder out. So hopefully that’s OK.

 

[emergeartistry]

We took over the care of our tortoise Schmidt a few weeks ago, from a family member who was moving out of the country. It’s wild, we were told she’s either a Sonoran desert tortoise or a Sulcata and we have an appointment coming up with the vet and a tortoise specialist soon to try to get it sorted out.

They know for a fact that she is at least nine years old. They’ve got photos of her going back that far. By that estimate she should be rather large. But she looks like a baby. They kept her in a very small enclosure, and the poor thing is literally only about 6 inches in length.

They did everything else right, she had regular soaks, a very balanced and varied diet mixed w/ lots of local plants (Arizona), enrichment, she had a burrow in her very small area, and access to water regularly, received plenty of UV light and calcium. They said her last vet visit was this past winter and she has no sign of MBD.

That being said, she is incredibly tiny like I said.

So now we have a dilemma and I’m not sure what to do. She is so small for her age that she’s hard to keep track of and very vulnerable to coyotes who can easily hop the fence into backyards in Arizona. I know so many people whose small pet tortoises have been either harmed by them or killed.

So we constructed a coop for her that’s about three times the size of the one that she was in originally, lots more room to roam around, but still not free roaming.

At this point, at 9 or 10 years old, will she even grow larger or is this it for the rest of her life? They couldn’t remember exactly how old she was but like I said they have photos going back at least nine or 10 years so he said his guess is that she is 9 to 11 years old.

Also, now I feel torn, I know that keeping her in the very very small enclosure is likely the thing that stunted her growth, but I’m worried about just giving her free roam of the yard if she’s going to be permanently small, because she’s at such a higher risk of harm from coyotes or bobcats.

The run that she has now is about five or 6 foot long and about four or 5 foot wide with lots of grass and dirt and gravel, and a burrow and a mini soaking pool, and a shaded area. We are in the process of building something even bigger, but this is infinitely larger than what she came to us in and it was pre-assembled, so we’re just using it through the hottest part of the summer so we can construct something larger this fall.

Sorry for the poor quality photo

OK, here’s a photo of the current enclosure as requested, like I said it’s approximately 5‘ x 6‘, literally just measured it. And it has a little inground, soaking pool and a covered area with some gravel and desert sand, which is just what the yard is, and some orchid mulch.

She’s almost exactly 6 inches maybe honestly just shy of it. But she’s very active and has a good appetite and her shell is very hard and doesn’t seem dried out. She loves soaking. Here’s a little better photo of her.

Sorry the sun is pretty intense and I know the lighting is a little weird because she’s half in the shade, but I didn’t want to disturb her because she seems so happy right now.

Also just to restate what I mentioned above, this will not be her permanent enclosure, it’s just so hot right now and miserable outside and we will be moving in September so we gave her this enclosure temporarily and she’ll be getting a bigger one at the new house.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

OK, so that’s interesting that you said that, I was just texting with her previous owner and she said that he felt like he used the hibernate phrase a little bit recklessly. He said that he never stopped giving her access to food or water and she would eat and drink regularly, but she was just less active in the Arizona winter when it was colder out. So hopefully that’s OK.

With your recent photo I would say it's a sulcata tortoise.

Less active but eating and moving is not the hibernation, so a false panic here Yet, it's important to provide heated, insulated shelter for colder weather (to warm up during the day and stay warm at night). Temperature inside should be no lower than 80F.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Is there any way you could move her onto a grassy area at some point? Just not sure the gravel and sand is ideal. I’m glad you’re able to build her something bigger soon and can’t wait to follow the progress!🥰

Perhaps a secure heated night box will be good in her new enclosure, @Tom has a thread somewhere on how to build them and I’ll attach some photo examples

 

[Tom]

We took over the care of our tortoise Schmidt a few weeks ago, from a family member who was moving out of the country. It’s wild, we were told she’s either a Sonoran desert tortoise or a Sulcata and we have an appointment coming up with the vet and a tortoise specialist soon to try to get it sorted out.

They know for a fact that she is at least nine years old. They’ve got photos of her going back that far. By that estimate she should be rather large. But she looks like a baby. They kept her in a very small enclosure, and the poor thing is literally only about 6 inches in length.

They did everything else right, she had regular soaks, a very balanced and varied diet mixed w/ lots of local plants (Arizona), enrichment, she had a burrow in her very small area, and access to water regularly, received plenty of UV light and calcium. They said her last vet visit was this past winter and she has no sign of MBD.

That being said, she is incredibly tiny like I said.

So now we have a dilemma and I’m not sure what to do. She is so small for her age that she’s hard to keep track of and very vulnerable to coyotes who can easily hop the fence into backyards in Arizona. I know so many people whose small pet tortoises have been either harmed by them or killed.

So we constructed a coop for her that’s about three times the size of the one that she was in originally, lots more room to roam around, but still not free roaming.

At this point, at 9 or 10 years old, will she even grow larger or is this it for the rest of her life? They couldn’t remember exactly how old she was but like I said they have photos going back at least nine or 10 years so he said his guess is that she is 9 to 11 years old.

Also, now I feel torn, I know that keeping her in the very very small enclosure is likely the thing that stunted her growth, but I’m worried about just giving her free roam of the yard if she’s going to be permanently small, because she’s at such a higher risk of harm from coyotes or bobcats.

The run that she has now is about five or 6 foot long and about four or 5 foot wide with lots of grass and dirt and gravel, and a burrow and a mini soaking pool, and a shaded area. We are in the process of building something even bigger, but this is infinitely larger than what she came to us in and it was pre-assembled, so we’re just using it through the hottest part of the summer so we can construct something larger this fall.

Sorry for the poor quality photo

With the second photo, I can now see you have a sulcata. Here is a list of what is happening:
1. This species comes from subSaharan Africa. A "cold" winter day time high temperature there might only reach 88 degrees. Normal weather all year long sees daily highs around 100. In the wild they spend 95% of their time underground. Ground temps there are always 80-85 year round, and THAT, or reasonably close to it, is what they need to thrive and be healthy. 118 degrees is no good for them. 35 degrees over night in winter is no good for them.
2. Part of every year in that region of the world is arid and dry. During that time, they stay underground in their warm, not hot, damp and humid burrows. The rest of the year in that region is hot, rainy and VERY humid. The monsoon season. The start of monsoon season, in fact the first heavy rain, is what prompts hatched babies to emerge from their underground nest chambers. Within a week or two of that first rain, there is heavy thick green vegetation, puddles and marshes form, and newly emerged baby sulcatas live under that thick damp hot cover. We are talking Louisiana summer heat and humidity. Almost unbearable to a human. This is NOT a desert species. They do not come from the Sahara desert. They come from forest edge areas and grasslands. You need a LOT of annual rainfall to sustain forests and grass lands.
3. With the above in mind, leaving them outside, or inside with an open top, in a dry desert climate usually kills them when they are babies. Imagine if you set an earthworm in your current tortoise enclosure right now. THAT is what is happening to a baby sulcata in hot dry conditions. Somehow, yours managed to survive.
4. Most breeders mistakenly think this is a "desert" species and start them all wrong. Most pet shops, vets, "reptile experts", books, YT, FB, and every other source give the same wrong care info, because they are not aware of, and have no understanding of points 1, 2, and 3 above. I can go into more detail and explain this mess more if needed.
5. With the above in mind, your enclosure, and the previous enclosure does not and cannot meet the needs of this tortoise. Its WAYYYYY too hot and that little bit of shade over this tortoise is like an oven cooking it in your scorching hot summer weather. Put a digital thermometer in the shade under that plastic tub lid and in your hide area and see what it reads. They are fine into the mid 90s, but anything over 100 starts to become dangerous. In summer in hot areas like yours and mine, they NEED to be able to get underground to get cool enough. Sprinklers, misters, and deep over head shade can help too. With a burrow, they can warm up in the morning sun at the mouth of their burrow and retreat to ideal stable temperatures under ground as the day heats up. In winter, its too cold down there, and they need a heated insulated night box to sleep in. I simply block off the burrow entrances in the fall when I see cooler weather coming. Usually toward the end of October for us.
6. This species should not live outside full time until they are around 10 inches or so. I move them outside, with a heated night box, in early spring before it gets too hot. If they are shy of 10 inches going into fall, I keep them indoors over winter, and let them play in their outdoor enclosures all day in warmer winter weather.
7. To house them indoors you need a 4x8 foot closed chamber with proper heating and lighting. They can spend hours a day outside in fair weather at 5-10 inches, but there is no point in having them outside in 100+ degree weather. They can't function, and it is dangerous and unnatural for them.
8. As adults living outside full time, they must be kept cool in the summer, and warm in the winter. Temperatures in their shelter should be 80-85 year round. In cold winter weather, I bump it up to 85-86, and they can come out to walk around in the warm sun all day, even when its cold outside. In normal warmer weather, I set the thermostat in the box to 80 to keep them warm overnight in November through March. There is no way to keep them 80-85 above ground in Phoenix in summer when its 110-120 degrees every day and 90 degrees at night. This baby needs to be indoors. When it gets a little bigger, it needs to be outdoors, but with access to an underground burrow in summer, and a heated night box in winter.
9. Most vets don't know tortoise care. I don't know where you found a "tortoise specialist", but in my decades of doing this, they usually are anything but. There is no better source of info than this forum. I've bred 1000s of sulcatas and raised dozens of them to maturity. I've rehabbed sick ones and fixed problems on poorly cared for ones. I've set up friends, family, and neighbors with the proper care, and the difference is astounding. I've done dozens of annual side-by-side experiments with groups of clutch mates to discover what is "optimal" for the species and why. Many members here on this forum, all over the world, followed along with those experiments, tried their own, and adjusted their care and housing routines as new info developed over the years. The rest of the world has not kept up, and often argues with us in spite of mountains of obvious clear evidence. Many people in your area just put them outside and have no clue about any of this. Some percentage of them manage to survive. Many don't. The survivors are often stunted and unhealthy in many ways.

Sorry for all the bad news. What can you do about it now?
1. Get this tortoise inside out of the extreme heat. Follow this care guide:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Ask all your questions. We are here to talk tortoises. Don't take my word for it. Ask for explanation until what I am saying makes sense.
2. Soak this tortoise every day for an hour or more in warm water in a tall sided opaque tub. Do this for two months, and then start skipping days occasionally until you are down to every second or third day as it gains size and grows more.
3. Build a proper heated shelter for nights and winter. These shelters also stay cooler during hot summer days due to the insulation and caulking. You won't need to heat it at all in summer, but when the cooler nights of fall return, you will see why they work so well. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

4. Along with the other threads I linked, this one will catch you up to speed on all the correct and correct care info for tortoises in general:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

About now, you are probably dizzy and shocked. Take some time to read all this a couple of times and take it all in. This is a GREAT species and very easy to care for in your climate with the right set up. We will help you learn all the stuff you need to learn. In the mean time, now at least you understand why this tortoise is so small for its age, and you know what species you have now too.

Now go outside and cool that tortoise off with the hose before it cooks!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Tom is clearly much more up on your climate and I’m glad he’s around to put you on the right track🙂

 

[emergeartistry]

With your recent photo I would say it's a sulcata tortoise.

Less active but eating and moving is not the hibernation, so a false panic here Yet, it's important to provide heated, insulated shelter for colder weather (to warm up during the day and stay warm at night). Temperature inside should be no lower than 80F.

Ok, I have a heating pad I was going to put under some

With the second photo, I can now see you have a sulcata. Here is a list of what is happening:
1. This species comes from subSaharan Africa. A "cold" winter day time high temperature there might only reach 88 degrees. Normal weather all year long sees daily highs around 100. In the wild they spend 95% of their time underground. Ground temps there are always 80-85 year round, and THAT, or reasonably close to it, is what they need to thrive and be healthy. 118 degrees is no good for them. 35 degrees over night in winter is no good for them.
2. Part of every year in that region of the world is arid and dry. During that time, they stay underground in their warm, not hot, damp and humid burrows. The rest of the year in that region is hot, rainy and VERY humid. The monsoon season. The start of monsoon season, in fact the first heavy rain, is what prompts hatched babies to emerge from their underground nest chambers. Within a week or two of that first rain, there is heavy thick green vegetation, puddles and marshes form, and newly emerged baby sulcatas live under that thick damp hot cover. We are talking Louisiana summer heat and humidity. Almost unbearable to a human. This is NOT a desert species. They do not come from the Sahara desert. They come from forest edge areas and grasslands. You need a LOT of annual rainfall to sustain forests and grass lands.
3. With the above in mind, leaving them outside, or inside with an open top, in a dry desert climate usually kills them when they are babies. Imagine if you set an earthworm in your current tortoise enclosure right now. THAT is what is happening to a baby sulcata in hot dry conditions. Somehow, yours managed to survive.
4. Most breeders mistakenly think this is a "desert" species and start them all wrong. Most pet shops, vets, "reptile experts", books, YT, FB, and every other source give the same wrong care info, because they are not aware of, and have no understanding of points 1, 2, and 3 above. I can go into more detail and explain this mess more if needed.
5. With the above in mind, your enclosure, and the previous enclosure does not and cannot meet the needs of this tortoise. Its WAYYYYY too hot and that little bit of shade over this tortoise is like an oven cooking it in your scorching hot summer weather. Put a digital thermometer in the shade under that plastic tub lid and in your hide area and see what it reads. They are fine into the mid 90s, but anything over 100 starts to become dangerous. In summer in hot areas like yours and mine, they NEED to be able to get underground to get cool enough. Sprinklers, misters, and deep over head shade can help too. With a burrow, they can warm up in the morning sun at the mouth of their burrow and retreat to ideal stable temperatures under ground as the day heats up. In winter, its too cold down there, and they need a heated insulated night box to sleep in. I simply block off the burrow entrances in the fall when I see cooler weather coming. Usually toward the end of October for us.
6. This species should not live outside full time until they are around 10 inches or so. I move them outside, with a heated night box, in early spring before it gets too hot. If they are shy of 10 inches going into fall, I keep them indoors over winter, and let them play in their outdoor enclosures all day in warmer winter weather.
7. To house them indoors you need a 4x8 foot closed chamber with proper heating and lighting. They can spend hours a day outside in fair weather at 5-10 inches, but there is no point in having them outside in 100+ degree weather. They can't function, and it is dangerous and unnatural for them.
8. As adults living outside full time, they must be kept cool in the summer, and warm in the winter. Temperatures in their shelter should be 80-85 year round. In cold winter weather, I bump it up to 85-86, and they can come out to walk around in the warm sun all day, even when its cold outside. In normal warmer weather, I set the thermostat in the box to 80 to keep them warm overnight in November through March. There is no way to keep them 80-85 above ground in Phoenix in summer when its 110-120 degrees every day and 90 degrees at night. This baby needs to be indoors. When it gets a little bigger, it needs to be outdoors, but with access to an underground burrow in summer, and a heated night box in winter.
9. Most vets don't know tortoise care. I don't know where you found a "tortoise specialist", but in my decades of doing this, they usually are anything but. There is no better source of info than this forum. I've bred 1000s of sulcatas and raised dozens of them to maturity. I've rehabbed sick ones and fixed problems on poorly cared for ones. I've set up friends, family, and neighbors with the proper care, and the difference is astounding. I've done dozens of annual side-by-side experiments with groups of clutch mates to discover what is "optimal" for the species and why. Many members here on this forum, all over the world, followed along with those experiments, tried their own, and adjusted their care and housing routines as new info developed over the years. The rest of the world has not kept up, and often argues with us in spite of mountains of obvious clear evidence. Many people in your area just put them outside and have no clue about any of this. Some percentage of them manage to survive. Many don't. The survivors are often stunted and unhealthy in many ways.

Sorry for all the bad news. What can you do about it now?
1. Get this tortoise inside out of the extreme heat. Follow this care guide:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Ask all your questions. We are here to talk tortoises. Don't take my word for it. Ask for explanation until what I am saying makes sense.
2. Soak this tortoise every day for an hour or more in warm water in a tall sided opaque tub. Do this for two months, and then start skipping days occasionally until you are down to every second or third day as it gains size and grows more.
3. Build a proper heated shelter for nights and winter. These shelters also stay cooler during hot summer days due to the insulation and caulking. You won't need to heat it at all in summer, but when the cooler nights of fall return, you will see why they work so well. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

4. Along with the other threads I linked, this one will catch you up to speed on all the correct and correct care info for tortoises in general:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

About now, you are probably dizzy and shocked. Take some time to read all this a couple of times and take it all in. This is a GREAT species and very easy to care for in your climate with the right set up. We will help you learn all the stuff you need to learn. In the mean time, now at least you understand why this tortoise is so small for its age, and you know what species you have now too.

Now go outside and cool that tortoise off with the hose before it cooks!

This is all great information! So even though my cousin had her in a very small enclosure (I’m texting with him) he said dumped piles of ice in her enclosure twice a day during the summer, and he DID use a reptile heater all winter. So I’m guessing that how she survived in spite of the odds.

So, our new house will have a huge garage, I’m thinking about putting a small cat-sized door into the garage, after reading all your info, and giving her access to an indoor space, that leads into a covered/contained outdoor space, so we can regulate the temperature for her more. Our garage in the new house will be insulated and I can use a humid swamp cooler to keep the temperature more even. Thank you for your info!

Do you think she’s stunted from the heat, the enclosure, or all of the above? At 10-11 years old, do you think it’s even possible for her to grow more?

 

[emergeartistry]

With the second photo, I can now see you have a sulcata. Here is a list of what is happening:
1. This species comes from subSaharan Africa. A "cold" winter day time high temperature there might only reach 88 degrees. Normal weather all year long sees daily highs around 100. In the wild they spend 95% of their time underground. Ground temps there are always 80-85 year round, and THAT, or reasonably close to it, is what they need to thrive and be healthy. 118 degrees is no good for them. 35 degrees over night in winter is no good for them.
2. Part of every year in that region of the world is arid and dry. During that time, they stay underground in their warm, not hot, damp and humid burrows. The rest of the year in that region is hot, rainy and VERY humid. The monsoon season. The start of monsoon season, in fact the first heavy rain, is what prompts hatched babies to emerge from their underground nest chambers. Within a week or two of that first rain, there is heavy thick green vegetation, puddles and marshes form, and newly emerged baby sulcatas live under that thick damp hot cover. We are talking Louisiana summer heat and humidity. Almost unbearable to a human. This is NOT a desert species. They do not come from the Sahara desert. They come from forest edge areas and grasslands. You need a LOT of annual rainfall to sustain forests and grass lands.
3. With the above in mind, leaving them outside, or inside with an open top, in a dry desert climate usually kills them when they are babies. Imagine if you set an earthworm in your current tortoise enclosure right now. THAT is what is happening to a baby sulcata in hot dry conditions. Somehow, yours managed to survive.
4. Most breeders mistakenly think this is a "desert" species and start them all wrong. Most pet shops, vets, "reptile experts", books, YT, FB, and every other source give the same wrong care info, because they are not aware of, and have no understanding of points 1, 2, and 3 above. I can go into more detail and explain this mess more if needed.
5. With the above in mind, your enclosure, and the previous enclosure does not and cannot meet the needs of this tortoise. Its WAYYYYY too hot and that little bit of shade over this tortoise is like an oven cooking it in your scorching hot summer weather. Put a digital thermometer in the shade under that plastic tub lid and in your hide area and see what it reads. They are fine into the mid 90s, but anything over 100 starts to become dangerous. In summer in hot areas like yours and mine, they NEED to be able to get underground to get cool enough. Sprinklers, misters, and deep over head shade can help too. With a burrow, they can warm up in the morning sun at the mouth of their burrow and retreat to ideal stable temperatures under ground as the day heats up. In winter, its too cold down there, and they need a heated insulated night box to sleep in. I simply block off the burrow entrances in the fall when I see cooler weather coming. Usually toward the end of October for us.
6. This species should not live outside full time until they are around 10 inches or so. I move them outside, with a heated night box, in early spring before it gets too hot. If they are shy of 10 inches going into fall, I keep them indoors over winter, and let them play in their outdoor enclosures all day in warmer winter weather.
7. To house them indoors you need a 4x8 foot closed chamber with proper heating and lighting. They can spend hours a day outside in fair weather at 5-10 inches, but there is no point in having them outside in 100+ degree weather. They can't function, and it is dangerous and unnatural for them.
8. As adults living outside full time, they must be kept cool in the summer, and warm in the winter. Temperatures in their shelter should be 80-85 year round. In cold winter weather, I bump it up to 85-86, and they can come out to walk around in the warm sun all day, even when its cold outside. In normal warmer weather, I set the thermostat in the box to 80 to keep them warm overnight in November through March. There is no way to keep them 80-85 above ground in Phoenix in summer when its 110-120 degrees every day and 90 degrees at night. This baby needs to be indoors. When it gets a little bigger, it needs to be outdoors, but with access to an underground burrow in summer, and a heated night box in winter.
9. Most vets don't know tortoise care. I don't know where you found a "tortoise specialist", but in my decades of doing this, they usually are anything but. There is no better source of info than this forum. I've bred 1000s of sulcatas and raised dozens of them to maturity. I've rehabbed sick ones and fixed problems on poorly cared for ones. I've set up friends, family, and neighbors with the proper care, and the difference is astounding. I've done dozens of annual side-by-side experiments with groups of clutch mates to discover what is "optimal" for the species and why. Many members here on this forum, all over the world, followed along with those experiments, tried their own, and adjusted their care and housing routines as new info developed over the years. The rest of the world has not kept up, and often argues with us in spite of mountains of obvious clear evidence. Many people in your area just put them outside and have no clue about any of this. Some percentage of them manage to survive. Many don't. The survivors are often stunted and unhealthy in many ways.

Sorry for all the bad news. What can you do about it now?
1. Get this tortoise inside out of the extreme heat. Follow this care guide:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Ask all your questions. We are here to talk tortoises. Don't take my word for it. Ask for explanation until what I am saying makes sense.
2. Soak this tortoise every day for an hour or more in warm water in a tall sided opaque tub. Do this for two months, and then start skipping days occasionally until you are down to every second or third day as it gains size and grows more.
3. Build a proper heated shelter for nights and winter. These shelters also stay cooler during hot summer days due to the insulation and caulking. You won't need to heat it at all in summer, but when the cooler nights of fall return, you will see why they work so well. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

4. Along with the other threads I linked, this one will catch you up to speed on all the correct and correct care info for tortoises in general:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

About now, you are probably dizzy and shocked. Take some time to read all this a couple of times and take it all in. This is a GREAT species and very easy to care for in your climate with the right set up. We will help you learn all the stuff you need to learn. In the mean time, now at least you understand why this tortoise is so small for its age, and you know what species you have now too.

Now go outside and cool that tortoise off with the hose before it cooks!

We just got her inside, the garage is in the 90s so that’s where we are bringing her today and I’m looking into humidifying evap coolers to put out there.

 

[Tom]

Do you think she’s stunted from the heat, the enclosure, or all of the above? At 10-11 years old, do you think it’s even possible for her to grow more?

Don't use a heat pad. Those aren't safe for tortoises. Kane heat mats or the Stansfield mats can work for winter heat.

Ice is not safe or suitable, and what sort of "reptile heater? in what sort of shelter? Given what we know so far, I'm pretty sure conditions were not suitable.

The indoor/outdoor space using the garage could work. Your thermometer will tell you. A swamp cooler to add humidity should be good too. Still, I think its much easier and better to allow them to burrow in summer, and use a temperature controlled insulated shelter for winter. Then you don't have to make a hole in your wall and try to heat or cool the entire garage. Outdoors with a burrow and a night box has worked better for me than any other method I've tried, and I have tried many methods over several decades. It works the best for other people that do it elsewhere here in the hot Southwest.

Stunting is due to dryness, dehydration, and temperatures that have been far too hot in summer, and far too cold in winter. Stunting has nothing to do with enclosure size. Small enclosures can cause several other problems, but it doesn't slow their growth.

Yes. With proper hydration, temperatures, and diet, this tortoise should grow plenty, but it will take months for the changes to take effect. Extreme temperatures, either too hot or too cold, can demolish the beneficial gut flora and fauna. It will take several months of NOT destroying the gut flora and fauna for it to restore and replenish. Only after that takes place, and food can be properly digested and utilized, will growth resume.

 

[emergeartistry]

Don't use a heat pad. Those aren't safe for tortoises. Kane heat mats or the Stansfield mats can work for winter heat.

Ice is not safe or suitable, and what sort of "reptile heater? in what sort of shelter? Given what we know so far, I'm pretty sure conditions were not suitable.

The indoor/outdoor space using the garage could work. Your thermometer will tell you. A swamp cooler to add humidity should be good too. Still, I think its much easier and better to allow them to burrow in summer, and use a temperature controlled insulated shelter for winter. Then you don't have to make a hole in your wall and try to heat or cool the entire garage. Outdoors with a burrow and a night box has worked better for me than any other method I've tried, and I have tried many methods over several decades. It works the best for other people that do it elsewhere here in the hot Southwest.

Stunting is due to dryness, dehydration, and temperatures that have been far too hot in summer, and far too cold in winter. Stunting has nothing to do with enclosure size. Small enclosures can cause several other problems, but it doesn't slow their growth.

Yes. With proper hydration, temperatures, and diet, this tortoise should grow plenty, but it will take months for the changes to take effect. Extreme temperatures, either too hot or too cold, can demolish the beneficial gut flora and fauna. It will take several months of NOT destroying the gut flora and fauna for it to restore and replenish. Only after that takes place, and food can be properly digested and utilized, will growth resume.

OK awesome! Thank you for the information! So I guess I’m confused, you said it was too hot outside, but she is OK to be outside as long as she can burrow? So if she isn’t able to burrow because the ground is hard or she’s little should we dig a burrow for her, how deep should it be? As far as what he meant by ice and reptile heater, I have no specifics. He was vague in his texts. Again thank you for the info!!