Zagros Mt greek

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hey @Tim/Robin , up front I'm not looking to buy, but then again maybe this will promote a sale? Who Knows.

Tell a bit about this geographic variant please.

I found this on wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains and it makes them seem interesting. Is it as simple as a known geographic variant, or is there more to their locality?

Thanks

 

[Lincoln Michal]

The Zagros Mt tortoise is the subspecies Testudo graeca buxtoni (perses). They live in western Iran and southeast Turkey. They are variable in shape and color. I keep this tortoise. My female has a shell shape which is flat somewhat like a russian. Her carapace has a pattern of reddish brown streaks on a gray back ground. Her head is very different from other greeks- It is kind of square and blocky. I got my tortoises from Tim/Robin. They are honest and reliable tortoise breeders if you want to get a buxtoni.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

This is interesting. I have mostly stayed away from most of the Testudo as the taxonomy of them drives me nuts. Egyptians are pretty straight forward, otherwise it's a giant puzzle to me.

Lincoln Michal, thanks for the detailed response.

 

[HermanniChris]

The Testudo graeca species complex is where the biggest mess still prevails. It's a difficult taxa to asses for many reasons partly due to the fact that this species has such a wide range. One of the biggest issues we find are the invalid terms used to describe Greek tortoises. "Golden" and "Black" Greek are the two most inappropriate terms as both solid gold and solid black specimens can be found in just about any subspecies or locale of T. graeca. These so called "Goldens" are actually correctly referred to as Mesopotamian tortoises while the black ones are most commonly encountered in the T. g. ibera grouping but also in North Africa and elsewhere. A big misconception is the assumption of T. g. anamurensis being the ones that are always black and this is very false. Very Golden specimens are certainly not uncommon for them as well. This poor terminology is also the case with T. g. buxtoni. "Zagros Mountain" is made up just as Golden and Black Greek is. At least Zagros Mountain holds some accuracy though. T. g. buxtoni's accurate title is Buxton's tortoise. Zagros Mountain also doesn't confuse people as much as golden or black does. Everyone assumes a Golden Greek is golden...that's simply not the case taxonomically.

Unfortunately the Testudo graeca complex is nowhere near as clear as the Testudo hermanni complex. Even still, hermanni have enough problems. Plain and simple, western and eastern Hermann's need to be elevated to full species rank. This was proposed in 2006 and only tentatively rejected until further notice. It will be revisited though and hopefully we will be able to see them as full species soon. Some authors already refer to them as such. The two are night and day both phenotypically and genetically as they derive from completely different evolutionary branches. The Dalmatian subspecies of Hermann's tortoise needs serious revising as it is currently considered invalid and only a geographical variant of the eastern subspecies. Like the Buxton's tortoise for example, it is clearly different and worth distinct listing as a valid subspecies. Both eastern and western Hermann's exhibit distinct locales found throughout their range but with the western now being recognized as the most endangered reptile in Western Europe, their bloodlines and the purity of their locales has become more important than ever. Three major groups of strains exist genetically now with certain locales being grouped together such as Sardinia and Corsica for example. The Hermann's tortoise taxonomic state is far from a final verdict but at least we are only dealing with 3 main players (or maybe only 2) in comparison to the many players in the T. graeca complex.

All this Mumbo jumbo is why I created my Hermann's site and will branch out into describing the Greek tortoises too eventually. It's also why I chose to rake myself over the coals financially and mentally to bring in my own locality groups of Testudos. I honestly try to stay away from a lot of what is in the USA these days. It's too mixed up and diluted at this point thanks to misinformed and even irresponsible dealers decade after decade. Luckily there are a good amount of serious keepers out there who kept records and know what they have and it's excellent to see specific Testudos available from time to time.

Hope this info helps maybe a little otherwise I just went off for no reason...which I definitely tend to do..in that case I apologize!

Chris

 

[TurtleBug]

The Testudo graeca species complex is where the biggest mess still prevails... ...and I will branch out into describing the Greek tortoises too eventually.

Super!!! Really looking forward to that. Can't wait to read it. Thank you in advance.

 

[colatoise]

I also have a buxtoni. Would love to know more specific info on them if anyone knows where to look. My little guy is about 4 1/2 now.

 

[MichaelaW]

You will learn everything you could possibly know about them from HermanniChris. He is the most knowledgeable person I have ever known.