baby torts are WAY WAY WAY more carnivorous than we'd like to think.

[Balboa]

Hey Dude, I think that's called organic thinking or something like that, that's where the best stuff comes from. Wacky out there notions that spark ideas. good stuff.

I made an observation today that sparked a notion that tends to put holes in my theory. hmm was that organic?

Adrienne is a hider, she only comes out to eat, if then, usually she eats after a soak. From what I read that's not really normal 4 inch red foot behavior, but is normal for a "distressed/depressed/whatever" redfoot. THat part plays into my theory, what to do when around scary things? dig in and hide. stay out of the light. I'm hoping she'll have a turn-around and start getting out more, etc., like Rocky did. In an effort to encourage her to bask I turned her hide a little bit so she has to walk over the basking spot to get in, thinking sometime she might say.. ohh that's nice, or whatever. No... she pokes her little head out into the light, her body still in the hide. Guess what... she's fairly well hidden, AND getting some UVB.

RUH ROH, didn't think about that one.

but I'm still convinced what she really wants to eat is bugs. Big difference between poking your head out of the hole and LEAVING the hole to get food.

 

[onarock]

I have a cople of maybe 4" redfoots that were given to me by a guy who couldnt give them proper care. I have never kept them in the almost 30 years of tortoise keeping. I just set them up in a new enclosure. I gave them a good size hide its a plastic pot half burried and only one likes to go in it. The other prefers to dig under an almost flat piece of slate on a flat rock. I was watching it dig and dig, it was pretty funny. All of my younger tortoises come out from where they are hiding quickly at the first sign on rain or simulated hose rain. My young platynota like to stay in the hide box but just in the rays of light coming in the opening. I put cactus pads near the hide and watched them drag the pad inside the hide. I have several enclosures with young tortoises and when I clean out their hides I've found just about everything I have ever fed them in there.

 

[Edna]

I'm curious if Tom has started feeding his sulcata and leopard babies an alternative protein supplement! I'm kinda balking at feeding pinkies to my yearlings...I'm wondering if it would do more harm than good at this point!?!?

I don't know what Tom is doing, but I have added worms to both of my enclosures (Tom/Cory Gpps, and 1 year old Hermann). I added a little garden soil to the damper, cooler end of the enclosures and the worms seem happy there. It's cool to see the little bits of leftover greens being pulled down holes! It is already too cold here to find any living bugs outside, so if I try making any other living things available, it will have to come from the bait shop or pet store. I've been watching this thread for ideas about what to offer, sticking with bugs and such.
So far the torts don't seem interested in the worms. This evening Torty surprised a worm crossing one of his trails. The worm rapidly sucked across the trail, leaving only a tip showing, and Torty paused politely. At this point, with my torts, it's not about what wild hatchings eat in their natural habitats, but rather about what well-fed captive torts might be interested in eating if it's available.

 

[Balboa]

I will say this for sure, your enclosure will benefit!
I've never seen Rocky pull up a worm, but I'm not watching her 24/7, and I know there are a lot in there. She's also past the age I'd expect a tort to be overly interested in worms, but I'm sure if one was laying in her dish, she'd enjoy it.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I am sure desert tortoises hatclings do occupy burrows, but it is erroneous to conclude they wouldn't have access to plant material, b/c of this. THe reasons you see very few baby torts in the wild witht he adults is also due in part that many offspring are eaten, many are well camoflauged, when above ground and there small size makes it easy to disappear into a grass clump. It also abit inaccurate to state that there are no plants available for desert spcies, b/c the adult tortoises ARE herbivores.

The suggestion that the cruel thing might be denying them meat, is disproven by the numerous, healthy adult tortoises that have been raised as 100% herbivorous and were hatched in captivity. If protein were seriously dificient, then the tortoises would not grow properly and suffer visible symptoms.....I am not saying this is not an open topic for discussion..I find most of the reasoning accurate and understand where each side is baseing thier opinion...this just happens to be mine. I also want to point out that I DO think that tortoises and younger ones in particular, would do best with careful consideration to providing plant based protein sources, that are unlikely to harm organs affected by excess animal proteins and as in bovines....even though the amino acids chains in vegetable proteins are different than those in animal based sources, it is what all herbivores have adapted to utilizeing and there are many, many soley herbivorous animals that grow just fine and some quite large on 100% vegetable protein sources.

I posed a similar question in the asian tortoises section, regarding useing legumes as a protein source, b/c I too question the lact of available protein in a spring mix, store green, and weed diet, that is not aumented with alfalfa, clover, spirulina, bee pollen, or some other protein source. I utilize bee pollen, modest amounts of legumes (foliage only), and Repashy veggie dust to fill the bill. I am doing that for my Winter feeding anyway, since clover and fresh alfalfa are not available.

---

I wanted to add that mammals are a poor example of animals that obtain large size and/ or live their whole lives on a vegetarian diet, b/c even herbivorous mammals start life on a rich animal protein source...mama's milk. Most mammals attain the majority of their size during thier growth while consuming milk.

Their are however huge fish, mullusks, insects, and reptiles that do live entirely on vegetation and do just fine. Their systems have developed to utilize the proteins in vegetation optimally to live and grow.

 

[Madkins007]

The suggestion that the cruel thing might be denying them meat, is disproven by the numerous, healthy adult tortoises that have been raised as 100% herbivorous and were hatched in captivity. If protein were seriously dificient, then the tortoises would not grow properly and suffer visible symptoms.

This would be a reasonable comment if we had good clinical evidence that that the tortoises raised were indeed healthy in all respects on such a diet. Before we could say this, however, we would need to know some things, like the relationship between captive vs wild longevity, reproduction rates, growth rates, wild hatchling diets (if any- some field studies suggest that Gopher Tortoises, for example, do not forage at all for the first 6 months or so) etc.

Most captive tortoises do not seem to be living longer than about 20 years- this alone seems to suggest that we, on average, are not generally raising healthy tortoises. If a common Snapping Turtle can live over 100 with Civil War musket balls in it's flesh, surely a tortoise can beat 20 with one leg tied behind it's shell.

I am probably going to put this badly, but as I understand it, when zoos see non-specific deaths in a species, they often look at dietary issues- things missing, such as the selenium (I think it was) that was missing from the diets of most captive zebras many years ago.

It would be REALLY NICE to solve this debate by either raising a bunch of babies of different species with freely available bugs and in a control group for a really long time, or by a good multi-species field study.

Some articles I would like to see in full that might help would include:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/ah/2005/00000002/00000002/art00010

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1563693

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1655/02-50

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470698877.ch4/summary

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

There is no doubt, that like all reptiles, we need more information about natural blood serum levels, reproductive, longevity, and dietary information, for comparison. I do however believe, that tortoises bred in captivity and kept with a proper diet and environment from the start, can, will, and does currently exceed the 20 year mark you mentioned.

90% of WC chameleons die within 30 days of captivity, which is a horrible prospective, but that is because many of them don't wind up in capable hands...many of the tortoises that are dieing young have been sullies sold to people ignorant of a proper habitat and diet. I think the numbers for educated keepers would be much better than 20 years.

As far as growth rates, I'm sure that hatchlings with educated keepers grow faster or as fast as wild counterparts, b/c there are no seasonal interruptions in food supply and they are often not hibernated until after a year or two, when in captivity.

I think some simple blood work on wild members of all tortoises and fecal analysis of wild young tortoises ( would be difficult to obtain) and even adults would go a looooong way towards giving us a dietary profile that would allow us to better provide supplementation of calcium, vitamins, D3, and protein. However, healthy captive animals, ones that have been bred and raised by educated keepers from the start and have had no signs of abnormal growth or health problems would be a reasonable place to start, so that we have a better understanding of what is going on in a healthy animal that we can replicate.

It is not a complete or perfect database, but it is VERY important not to fill in the holes with radical, potentially harmful experimentation. Having access to insects in the enclosure, as is the case outdoors is one thing, but adding insects or meat to the dish of greens is not to be advised for most species....IMO


I gave more thought to the myriad of animals that do start life on milk or by scavengeing/predation and as adults, become herbivores. I then thought of many frogs and toads that do the opposite. The adpoles start out as herbivorous, eating algae, then metamorphose into insectivorous adults, where they do the majority of their growth. It depends less on what is available in the environment and more about what the species' body has learned to utilize for healthy growth and nutrition. Most herbivores/omnivores have fast metabolisms and movements for locateing prey/scavengeing oppertunities. Torts have slower movements and rather slow gut motility, when adults and fed a vegetarian diest, as they eat in the wild. A baby tortoise should be more active and have different blood serum levels, if it is to utelize the calories and protein found in a diet dominated by insects. At least that is my speculation.

 

[Madkins007]

(snip)
I do however believe, that tortoises bred in captivity and kept with a proper diet and environment from the start, can, will, and does currently exceed the 20 year mark you mentioned.

90% of WC chameleons die within 30 days of captivity, which is a horrible prospective, but that is because many of them don't wind up in capable hands...many of the tortoises that are dieing young have been sullies sold to people ignorant of a proper habitat and diet. I think the numbers for educated keepers would be much better than 20 years.
(snip)

It is not a complete or perfect database, but it is VERY important not to fill in the holes with radical, potentially harmful experimentation. Having access to insects in the enclosure, as is the case outdoors is one thing, but adding insects or meat to the dish of greens is not to be advised for most species....IMO

(snip)

The most common 'short-lived' tortoise I hear about is the Russians that so many people struggle to have live for more than 5 years, but it is just really uncommon to hear about older tortoises in captivity outside of places like Florida. The thing is we've been keeping tortoises as pets for a really long time and I don't have much of a sense we have really done a lot for longevity.

As for the experiment- I completely agree. In my thought model, I would just have bugs and worms living as naturally as I could for the tortoises to hunt and enjoy if they grab them.

 

[Kristina]

She's also past the age I'd expect a tort to be overly interested in worms

We are talking about a Redfoot, right? Don't bet money on it dear I have a 14 incher that will climb in my lap after worms.

Worms = forest tortoise crack

 

[Balboa]

ROFL then maybe I just THINK I have Earthworms in there

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

captive lifespans?

Are there any common denominators in the death of captive torts, that are kept properly (as we know it be now)?
You mention those kept outdoors in Florida fare better, that indicates a vital need for sunlight...IMO
I can't imagine why a properly fed, housed, and cared for tortoise would have a shorter lifespan in captivity...it should be longer without the predation and food shortages, diseases and parasites of life in the wild.

 

[onarock]

biglove I would like to research that. I know that the platynota studbbok list deaths and weather an autopsy was performed. Maybe I could ask around, you bring up an interesting question

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

As far as I am aware, the methods for keeping torts the way we do now and the mainstream use of humidity for hatchlings (compared to recent past), has only begun to be widely adopted in the last 10 years. And again, the majority of torts that are sold are not going to experienced keepers or even people who are putting the proper research and therefore, the proper efforts into keeping thier animals healthy. We should see a rise in captive lifespans for most, if not all species and I strongly feel that among experienced/ educated keepers, most species are doing well in captivity...sullies are being rasised to adulthood with smooth shells, as are leopards, boxies, ussians, greeks, redfoots, manouria, and so on....Hingebacks are being acclimated and breeding in captivity...we just time for the data to represent the proper demographics and give time for current keeping trends to live out in hatchlings to judge the difference between those hatched a decade ago. We have to look specifically at properly kept tortoises to make judgements about the potential for extended captive lifespans and not include the thousands that die as dehydrated imports, poorly fed hatchlings, ones kept cold or too dry...and so on. It would take a long-term and very dedicated study that examined and witheld a standard of what keeping techniques were considered to be those of an educated/experienced keeper and that they were indeed the ''right'' way to keep the tortoises.

biglove I would like to research that. I know that the platynota studbbok list deaths and weather an autopsy was performed. Maybe I could ask around, you bring up an interesting question

 

[Madkins007]

As far as I am aware, the methods for keeping torts the way we do now and the mainstream use of humidity for hatchlings (compared to recent past), has only begun to be widely adopted in the last 10 years. And again, the majority of torts that are sold are not going to experienced keepers or even people who are putting the proper research and therefore, the proper efforts into keeping thier animals healthy. We should see a rise in captive lifespans for most, if not all species and I strongly feel that among experienced/ educated keepers, most species are doing well in captivity...sullies are being rasised to adulthood with smooth shells, as are leopards, boxies, ussians, greeks, redfoots, manouria, and so on....Hingebacks are being acclimated and breeding in captivity...we just time for the data to represent the proper demographics and give time for current keeping trends to live out in hatchlings to judge the difference between those hatched a decade ago. We have to look specifically at properly kept tortoises to make judgements about the potential for extended captive lifespans and not include the thousands that die as dehydrated imports, poorly fed hatchlings, ones kept cold or too dry...and so on. It would take a long-term and very dedicated study that examined and witheld a standard of what keeping techniques were considered to be those of an educated/experienced keeper and that they were indeed the ''right'' way to keep the tortoises.

There are a few problems with trying to raise torts in a more scientific way. We don't know a lot about the hatchling life, we don't have a lot of clinical values for things like recommended calcium or D3, and they live for a long time (even if not for as long as wilds would.) If I am doing a longitudinal study on something like UV and reproduction, it would take me a decade just to get most of the torts to reliable breeding age. Raising a hundred or so torts under controlled conditions for 10 years is tough.

I also believe I was trying originally to make the point that there may be flaws in our cares if our charges are indeed not living as long or longer than wild torts.

Sadly, this is another gap in our knowledge. As far as I know, we only have sketchy anecdotal information as to lifespans and causes of deaths in most cases outside of zoos, etc.

 

[DeanS]

Hey! You guys gotta hear this! Just got an email from my buddy in Germany (the guy I inherited Diesel from). He told me that Diesel had in fact eaten baby opossums and rats on occasion...and Diesel is a mammoth! But he is pyramided...probably due to the fact that he was soaked every 2 weeks and kept in ultra dry conditions as a hatchling! But he did have a water bowl and drank EVERYDAY! I love learning from other peoples' mistakes...not that haven't made a few myself...but I NEVER repeat my mistakes.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Where can I get baby possums in AZ? It's lunch time!

......complete sarcasm, I won't be feeding any mammals. Now earthworms or grubs??........

 

[Balboa]

I have a feeling about something here, and don't really want to get to personal, or offend, but Biglove, are you a Vegan? I get the sense you feel threatened by the notion that young torts MAY need animal protein in a truly natural diet.

I could totally get where a vegan could be really into vegetarian tortoises, there are few other reptiles that fit that bill, and gives a sort camraderie unobtainable with other pets. That's TOTALLY cool, and I get that.

The whole point of this thread, was that I SUSPECT we are missing a necessary factor in the natural diet of BABY tortoises by assuming they eat EXACTLY as adults do, as logic dictates that to be unlikely.

Can that potential need be met with a purely vegetarian diet? Certainly! but with care, and its difficult to know until more facts are known about the actual dietary requirements of hatchlings as met by nature. I'm saying we need to learn more, not that someone should start feeding their tort puppy chow as 90% of its diet. That would be reckless and ill advised.

It should also be pointed out that this is about babies, and by babies I'm thinking under a few months for most species, past that point they will rely more and more on vegetarian diets.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

LOL.......no, I am certainly not vegan or vegetarian by any sense of the word. I eat way more meat than I wouldlike to.

The reason I am so careful witht he introduction of animals proteins in captive tortoises, is that I know from working with other animals, just how dangerous protein can be, when it is not in the right from. Even insectovorous reptiles are very subject to fatty livers and nutritional deficits, if the captive diet isn't carefully evaluated and and represented by a large variety of quality prey items, with fatty, larval types of prey being kept to a minimum.

I am not convinced you are wrong, but the implications, if you are and people begin feeding animal based protein sources, are serious. I believe baby tortoises are ''experimental feeders'' and are very likey to consume or sample invertebrates that catch thier eye, but I also think they eat lots of fungi and the vegetation they consume is more nutrient dense, than the greens they may get in captivity, which tend to be higher in nitrates and less in vitamins and minerals. They also eat throughout the day and not just all at one sitting. I also think a tortoise that occupies one burrow would exhaust the invertebrate supply, if it that was all it ate and did not move along to a new burrow, b/c the influx of new invertebrates wouldn't come fast enough to sustain them...they would also have to move to find accessible water for drinking in order to cope with such a diet.

I don't completely disagree with you, but I err more towards a vegetarian tortoise, b/c it is safer than attempting to gauge how much prtein is too much. If we feel protein is lacking, it is much less reported to suffer from over consumption of plant based proteins, though it is often advised against feeding high protein plants in large amounts. I am adding ''green proteins'' as we speak, b/c with Winter here and a heavier relianceon store greens, I feel it couldn't hurt. I think 25% of the diet being made up of alfalfa and clover, won't hurt them, but add that protein via insects or mammalian petfoods and you will almost certainly see negative health affects.

I have a feeling about something here, and don't really want to get to personal, or offend, but Biglove, are you a Vegan? I get the sense you feel threatened by the notion that young torts MAY need animal protein in a truly natural diet.

I could totally get where a vegan could be really into vegetarian tortoises, there are few other reptiles that fit that bill, and gives a sort camraderie unobtainable with other pets. That's TOTALLY cool, and I get that.

The whole point of this thread, was that I SUSPECT we are missing a necessary factor in the natural diet of BABY tortoises by assuming they eat EXACTLY as adults do, as logic dictates that to be unlikely.

Can that potential need be met with a purely vegetarian diet? Certainly! but with care, and its difficult to know until more facts are known about the actual dietary requirements of hatchlings as met by nature. I'm saying we need to learn more, not that someone should start feeding their tort puppy chow as 90% of its diet. That would be reckless and ill advised.

It should also be pointed out that this is about babies, and by babies I'm thinking under a few months for most species, past that point they will rely more and more on vegetarian diets.

 

[Balboa]

LOL Fair enough, I just wanted to be careful here, I could see offending someone pretty easily without meaning to if I ignored the possibility. I've known a few Vegans, dang it makes barbecues a pain.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I don't offend easily and for me, a true measure of intelligence is the ability to carry on a debate, have differing opions, and still respect eachother. I despise elitest attitudes and close-mindeness....you have shown none of those traits, so I don't consider you an opponent, just someone with different, and if I might add, well thought out ideas.