Concerned (pyramiding?)

Sarah_sinc

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She was talking about the thermostat turning the basking light on and off when the enclosure gets too hot. I can see how the wording might be confusing. I had the same thought you did at first.

The solution is to use a lower wattage bulb.

@Sarah_sinc The MVB bulb you are using for basking causes pyramiding. The cfl type UV bulb you are using is ineffective as a UV source, and those sometimes burn their eyes. You'll need to change the bulb situation around, and change your substrate to stop the pyramiding. The vivarium part is good. Its very difficult to maintain the correct conditions in the typical tortoise table. You should also switch to a better water bowl, and thermometer.


There are four elements to heating and lighting:
1. Basking lamp. I recommend a low wattage flood bulb set on a timer and over to one side. Adjust the wattage or bulb height to get the correct temperature of 95-100 directly under it. This should be on a timer for about 12 hours a day.
2. Ambient light. I like LEDs for this. You can use strips or screw in type LED bulbs. Choose LEDs in the 5000-6500K color range. The 2500K ones look too yellowish. This can run on the same timer as the basking bulb.
3. Ambient heat, if needed. CHE or RHP on a thermostat should cover this. Use more than one, if needed.
4. UV. If you can get your baby outside in a safe outdoor enclosure a couple of times a week for most of the year, you don't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the HO types. I'd do this on about half of the enclosure. In your 6 footer, I'd get the 22" HO tube and mount it over to one side. I'd run it for 3-4 hours mid day. When used in this way, I like to get a UV index reading from a Solarmeter 6.5 of around 5-7. This simulates the mid day UV spike that happens every day outside.

Many thanks for your detailed reply I really appreciate any help! I spoke to the vet we use and he advised a tortoise table and was very anti Viv! so now I am even more confused! ?
I have ordered new substrate which is the one kronksmom advised to get.
He does get out into his outside enclosure when it's sunny but living in sunny old Wales UK doesn't happen all that often! But we do go out whenever we can. He also likes to wonder around the house when we are home too.
What sort of water bowl would be ok? He seems to like that one but I am willing to get anything to help following advice!
I ordered a tortoise table now but if it's the wrong thing to have done I could return. Just want what's best for him
 

Tom

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Many thanks for your detailed reply I really appreciate any help! I spoke to the vet we use and he advised a tortoise table and was very anti Viv! so now I am even more confused! ?
I have ordered new substrate which is the one kronksmom advised to get.
He does get out into his outside enclosure when it's sunny but living in sunny old Wales UK doesn't happen all that often! But we do go out whenever we can. He also likes to wonder around the house when we are home too.
What sort of water bowl would be ok? He seems to like that one but I am willing to get anything to help following advice!
I ordered a tortoise table now but if it's the wrong thing to have done I could return. Just want what's best for him
Many people have this dilemma.

My career and hobbies have me working with all sorts of exotic vets on a regular basis. Many of them are friends. I travel the world with them and share holiday meals at my table with them. Vets don't know everything. They are in a tough spot. Human doctors have to learn everything about ONE species. In the same time frame, vets have to learn everything about EVERY species. They can't. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. They learn what they learn on their own from the same wrong sources as everybody else. My vet friends call me to ask about tortoise care to advise their clients. People who raise and breed lots of tortoises for many years and experiment with different ways of housing and caring for them are the people who know tortoise care. We have dozens of people like that on this forum. When any of us say the wrong thing, a bunch of others step in and correct us. Sometimes we argue (usually politely) about why we see it the way we do, and readers can make up their own mind.

In time, if you try it several times both ways, you will learn the good and bad points of any style of tortoise keeping. The advantage of a forum like this is that you don't have to learn the hard way at your tortoise's expense. Many other people have already done it any way you can think of, and we can all tell you what the results will be. We were all once where you are. We all know how frustrating the contradictions can be. We'll do our best to explain our answers and help you decide what to do.
 

Sarah_sinc

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Many people have this dilemma.

My career and hobbies have me working with all sorts of exotic vets on a regular basis. Many of them are friends. I travel the world with them and share holiday meals at my table with them. Vets don't know everything. They are in a tough spot. Human doctors have to learn everything about ONE species. In the same time frame, vets have to learn everything about EVERY species. They can't. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. They learn what they learn on their own from the same wrong sources as everybody else. My vet friends call me to ask about tortoise care to advise their clients. People who raise and breed lots of tortoises for many years and experiment with different ways of housing and caring for them are the people who know tortoise care. We have dozens of people like that on this forum. When any of us say the wrong thing, a bunch of others step in and correct us. Sometimes we argue (usually politely) about why we see it the way we do, and readers can make up their own mind.

In time, if you try it several times both ways, you will learn the good and bad points of any style of tortoise keeping. The advantage of a forum like this is that you don't have to learn the hard way at your tortoise's expense. Many other people have already done it any way you can think of, and we can all tell you what the results will be. We were all once where you are. We all know how frustrating the contradictions can be. We'll do our best to explain our answers and help you decide what to do.

Thank you so much Tom I really appreciate your help and expertise! It's valuable and I bet vets ask you guys for help and advice you are definitely right there! The vet I chose was one who specialises in tortoise care but i guess even they can get things wrong or like you say have differing views and opinions!
Like I said just want what's best for the little man and I think this forum is the best place to get the advice needed ?
 

Sarah_sinc

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So far I've ordered a tortoise table and new substrate bathing daily and giving slightly less food (and banned the kids from giving extra which I found out they have been doing alot)!!
Looking based on your advice to change the lighting any links to possible better alternatives would be greatly appreciated.
Or any other advice in general would be great. Thank you again
 

Kim&Tim

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Many thanks for your detailed reply I really appreciate any help! I spoke to the vet we use and he advised a tortoise table and was very anti Viv! so now I am even more confused! ?
I have ordered new substrate which is the one kronksmom advised to get.
He does get out into his outside enclosure when it's sunny but living in sunny old Wales UK doesn't happen all that often! But we do go out whenever we can. He also likes to wonder around the house when we are home too.
What sort of water bowl would be ok? He seems to like that one but I am willing to get anything to help following advice!
I ordered a tortoise table now but if it's the wrong thing to have done I could return. Just want what's best for him
You can keep using the one you have if he likes it, just sink it in the substrate more. You can also use a simple terracotta saucer for plants, it has nice traction. But always sink it down to substrate level, that's it!
The table is fine, I made one myself and I would advise anyone to that because it's cheaper and not hard at all. The problem with tortoise tables you can buy, is that they are quite small. I've never seen one in a decent size.
Making one yourself is fun, way cheaper and you can make it as big as you want!
I think you'll be a great tortoise mom! ?
 

Sarah_sinc

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You can keep using the one you have if he likes it, just sink it in the substrate more. You can also use a simple terracotta saucer for plants, it has nice traction. But always sink it down to substrate level, that's it!
The table is fine, I made one myself and I would advise anyone to that because it's cheaper and not hard at all. The problem with tortoise tables you can buy, is that they are quite small. I've never seen one in a decent size.
Making one yourself is fun, way cheaper and you can make it as big as you want!
I think you'll be a great tortoise mom! ?

Thank you!
Yes I agree they do come up a little small. I have a plan to get this table as a starter (it's the same floor space as he currently has in the Viv) and as he grows I'm planning on getting hubby to build an L shape one which will be very large. I'm hoping by doing these adjustments he will be ok and the pyramiding settles some what
 

Sarah_sinc

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At the moment I feel like a terrible owner
I researched so much before getting him and now I feel I have failed. I'm so glad I have found this forum to be able to tweek little areas to perfect his care
 

lucycdavies

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Hi, I would maybye suggest that you don't give your little friend an unlimited food supply - I have heard that you should give tortoises the size of their shell in food, but please check because I am no expert ? And I would hate to make your little friend ill, I read in one of your previous posts that you feel bad - don't feel that you have let him down, I feel the same way sometimes about my little Rio! We (including your tortoise!) all know your doing your best to make his life great!
 

KronksMom

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Tortoises are tough pets. Like Tom said, not even the vets know much about them! But you've found this forum now and you're doing the very best you can for Lord Voldetort. You only ever fail if you give up.
I personally wouldn't bother with a purchased tortoise table. Especially if it's the same amount of space as his current viv. You'll be able to build one yourself from an old bookshelf or even from scratch for much less money and it will fit your needs much better. Just do a search on here for "tortoise table" and you'll find a ton of examples.
 

KronksMom

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As far as food goes.
As long as they are getting the right kind of food, and they have enough space to walk around and properly digest their food, tortoises are unlikely to over eat. Tortoises are grazers. The whole "about as much food as the size of their shell" is a good rule. But they like to pick at it throughout the day too. So if you have plants available, or just leave the food in there all day, or some people even feed multiple times a day, it isn't too big of a deal. The real important thing is making sure he's getting the RIGHT food. No fruit, primarily broad leafy weeds, some flowers. And variety. Eating the same thing every day, even if it's something that's good for him, it can't possibly have every single thing he needs. That's why variety is important. Again, If you read the stickied notes at the top of the testudo section, Tom has written some great care sheets that go over more specifics about diet.
 

Sarah_sinc

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As far as food goes.
As long as they are getting the right kind of food, and they have enough space to walk around and properly digest their food, tortoises are unlikely to over eat. Tortoises are grazers. The whole "about as much food as the size of their shell" is a good rule. But they like to pick at it throughout the day too. So if you have plants available, or just leave the food in there all day, or some people even feed multiple times a day, it isn't too big of a deal. The real important thing is making sure he's getting the RIGHT food. No fruit, primarily broad leafy weeds, some flowers. And variety. Eating the same thing every day, even if it's something that's good for him, it can't possibly have every single thing he needs. That's why variety is important. Again, If you read the stickied notes at the top of the testudo section, Tom has written some great care sheets that go over more specifics about diet.

I've just been reading it's fantastic. My only problem is I have absolutely no idea when it comes to plants lol! Terrible not green fingered at all so I wouldn't have a clue how to identify a weed! I'm looking at the food lists and having a look at photos but terrified of feed him the wrong foods
 

KronksMom

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Me too! I actually stared at pictures of dandelions on my phone before I would pick one because I had so little confidence in my own ability to identify even that plant! It just takes time. Now I can identify at least a dozen plants confidently on my own, and that list is constantly growing. We also grow pansies, violets and several different heirloom lettuce varieties at home, as well as a testudo seed mix that I got from tortoisesupply.com
Living in an apartment makes feeding him harder, but I got my husband an aerogarden for Christmas, so we've been using that to help supplement the grocery store foods that we have to sometimes buy. Plants are WAY outside of my comfort zone, but I am capable of learning anything, given enough time and the right motivation. Kronk is definitely motivation enough for me :)
I imagine you'll find you and Voldetort are the same.
 

Maggie3fan

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Hi, I would maybye suggest that you don't give your little friend an unlimited food supply - I have heard that you should give tortoises the size of their shell in food, but please check because I am no expert ? And I would hate to make your little friend ill, I read in one of your previous posts that you feel bad - don't feel that you have let him down, I feel the same way sometimes about my little Rio! We (including your tortoise!) all know your doing your best to make his life great!
Generally specking...I personally recommend that you feed as much as they will eat in 15-20 minutes...there's no written in stone rule...
 

Sarah_sinc

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Me too! I actually stared at pictures of dandelions on my phone before I would pick one because I had so little confidence in my own ability to identify even that plant! It just takes time. Now I can identify at least a dozen plants confidently on my own, and that list is constantly growing. We also grow pansies, violets and several different heirloom lettuce varieties at home, as well as a testudo seed mix that I got from tortoisesupply.com
Living in an apartment makes feeding him harder, but I got my husband an aerogarden for Christmas, so we've been using that to help supplement the grocery store foods that we have to sometimes buy. Plants are WAY outside of my comfort zone, but I am capable of learning anything, given enough time and the right motivation. Kronk is definitely motivation enough for me :)
I imagine you'll find you and Voldetort are the same.

I need to start researching them a bit more. My husband is good with identifying plants and weeds but even he won't commit!
In a bit of a pickle now as whether to stick with the Viv or tortoise table.
 

ZDR94

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I'd like some help if possible. I have an almost 2 year old Herman and when i was drying him off after bathing I noticed there seems to be some raising here? Gals almost?
Any advice I'd greatly appreciate!
Many thanks
Sarah

View attachment 296185View attachment 296186
Hi sarah_sinc, I have a small Herman’s and use coco coir, I see below someone said to pat down the coco coir, just be careful as patting it down might stop him from digging. You want it a little fluffy on the top. Also, be a little careful with soaking the whole enclosure regularly because if your tort is constantly damp he might develop shell rot. You want to aim for one end being dry and cool, one end warm and damp so that he can choose between the two. I keep the humidity up on the warm end by spraying a couple times a day (whenever it looks super dry on the top) -maybe try it and see what you think it definitely works for my tort. I check the substrate every day and only soak it when it needs it (which is hardly ever maybe once a week) and also have attached some sponges out of reach that I wet. They’ve worked really well. I also have the same bridge made out of sticks as you have in your picture which my tort absolutely loves, if you put this in the warm humid area it will encourage him to dig underneath it.
One other thing is that pyramiding can also be caused by over feeding and lack of calcium. So I would recommend keeping an eye on how much you feed him, portions should be roughly the size of his shell and you know if you’re over feeding if he leaves any. You can add some cuttlefish into his enclosure to help with calcium intake, it also helps trim their beaks. Hope this helps.
 

Sarah_sinc

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Hi sarah_sinc, I have a small Herman’s and use coco coir, I see below someone said to pat down the coco coir, just be careful as patting it down might stop him from digging. You want it a little fluffy on the top. Also, be a little careful with soaking the whole enclosure regularly because if your tort is constantly damp he might develop shell rot. You want to aim for one end being dry and cool, one end warm and damp so that he can choose between the two. I keep the humidity up on the warm end by spraying a couple times a day (whenever it looks super dry on the top) -maybe try it and see what you think it definitely works for my tort. I check the substrate every day and only soak it when it needs it (which is hardly ever maybe once a week) and also have attached some sponges out of reach that I wet. They’ve worked really well. I also have the same bridge made out of sticks as you have in your picture which my tort absolutely loves, if you put this in the warm humid area it will encourage him to dig underneath it.
One other thing is that pyramiding can also be caused by over feeding and lack of calcium. So I would recommend keeping an eye on how much you feed him, portions should be roughly the size of his shell and you know if you’re over feeding if he leaves any. You can add some cuttlefish into his enclosure to help with calcium intake, it also helps trim their beaks. Hope this helps.

thanks so so much.
I've put a cuttlefish in there my word he is loving it!
Definitely over fed as I found the children have been giving him fruit a lot so that is now stopped! He is a right pig though he eats so much but I have reduced the portion size a bit though to the size of his shell. I'll make sure to not over soak the substrate that's great advice thank you! Calcium i give a little 2-3 times a week over his food which I'll be honest wasn't as strict with it prior to this as he hated the powder.
I think (and hope) the reason for this is
Too much food (and wrong food)
Not even bathing
Wrong substrate

I've corrected these so im hoping this will be ok
 

KronksMom

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Pyramiding is only caused by keeping a tortoise in too dry of conditions. Nothing else. All the other beliefs are old & outdated & have been proven wrong by years of research and experimentation, a lot of that done by our own @Tom . Hopefully he'll pop on & he can much better explain his own results.
 

Sarah_sinc

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Pyramiding is only caused by keeping a tortoise in too dry of conditions. Nothing else. All the other beliefs are old & outdated & have been proven wrong by years of research and experimentation, a lot of that done by our own @Tom . Hopefully he'll pop on & he can much better explain his own results.


I've changed the substrate to the one you suggested! He's not keen I'll be honest lol but tough! Sure he will get used to it and enjoy digging! Such a diva this tort!!
 

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