Controversial pet visit ?

[JDDV97]

Hello I recently bought a baby leopard tortoise from a reptile show . But seemed sick due to blue dark eyes so I switched a closed chamber enclosure . But recently he stopped eating about a week ago and became sluggish . Took him to vet and they said he was septic and he was not looking well. But it was not a lost cause , suspect hypocalcemia & suspect Sepsis . He had a soft shell, slight colored plaster on, His eyes were watery and puffed up. But 2 things the vet mentioned took me by surprise #1 my humidity was too high and needed to be dropped to 60-70 , #2 No daily soakings ,

2 things mentioned religiously on this forum . Keep high humidity for babies and soak babies daily if possible . Is there such thing as too high humidity? And I would assume the soak would help with eye being shut ? She said to leave greenhouse slightly unzipped to get humidity down to 60-70 , and soak 1-2x a week only .They gave him Fortaz,calcium gluconate, , vitamin injection , vitamin B12 , and vitamin A&D . And 7 shots of fortaz for every 72 hrs cycle and 7 shots of calcium for every 24hr .


Don’t get me wrong they were very professional and excellent service . But wanted to get opinions from others.

My reads

DAY TIME 12 Hr Basking cycle
Basking 97F 77%
Warm 93F 85%
Cool 90F 90%
Hide 88F 94%

NIGHT TIME CHE set to 83
Basking 82F 94%
Warm 82F 99%
Cool 82F 99%
Hide 82F 99%

Reptibark, substrate , he’s a picky eater only eats hibiscus and clovers , he wouldn’t touch pellets dry or wet or anything with reptibark. I would soak him every morning for 30 min in warm water . He never goes in his hide .

 

[JDDV97]

@wellington @Tom @Littleredfootbigredheart @Yvonne G

 

[JDDV97]

Should I drop my humidity & drop soaks per week ?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello I recently bought a baby leopard tortoise from a reptile show . But seemed sick due to blue dark eyes so I switched a closed chamber enclosure . But recently he stopped eating about a week ago and became sluggish . Took him to vet and they said he was septic and he was not looking well. But it was not a lost cause , suspect hypocalcemia & suspect Sepsis . He had a soft shell, slight colored plaster on, His eyes were watery and puffed up. But 2 things the vet mentioned took me by surprise #1 my humidity was too high and needed to be dropped to 60-70 , #2 No daily soakings ,

2 things mentioned religiously on this forum . Keep high humidity for babies and soak babies daily if possible . Is there such thing as too high humidity? And I would assume the soak would help with eye being shut ? She said to leave greenhouse slightly unzipped to get humidity down to 60-70 , and soak 1-2x a week only .They gave him Fortaz,calcium gluconate, , vitamin injection , vitamin B12 , and vitamin A&D . And 7 shots of fortaz for every 72 hrs cycle and 7 shots of calcium for every 24hr .


Don’t get me wrong they were very professional and excellent service . But wanted to get opinions from others.

My reads

DAY TIME 12 Hr Basking cycle
Basking 97F 77%
Warm 93F 85%
Cool 90F 90%
Hide 88F 94%

NIGHT TIME CHE set to 83
Basking 82F 94%
Warm 82F 99%
Cool 82F 99%
Hide 82F 99%

Reptibark, substrate , he’s a picky eater only eats hibiscus and clovers , he wouldn’t touch pellets dry or wet or anything with reptibark. I would soak him every morning for 30 min in warm water . He never goes in his hide .

View attachment 379528View attachment 379531

Humidity needs to be high for babies, lots of vets/breeders think babies can be kept at their adult humidity levels, but the higher humidity helps with their smooth growth, in the wild they hatch in very wet monsoon seasons and babies tend to stay in the undergrowth where all that moisture is locked in, likely to avoid predation, there’s nothing wrong with higher humidity for babies, if there was we’d see a lot more issues on the forum. We see more issues in babies with lower humidity.

Daily soaks is also fine for hatchlings, providing you’re keeping the water temperature where it needs to be, around 95f degrees.
Adults are ok being soaked 1-2 times a week.
I think the vet is definitely outdated on some aspects of care when it comes to housing babies, which isn’t unusual unfortunately, a lot of them follow outdated care.

Im guessing the Fortaz was to help any with any possible infection going on? I don’t think that would necessarily hurt to try a course of, though I’d maybe want them to try running some bloods. The softer shell probably prompted them to give some calcium. I’m always very wary of vets that give vitamin injections to tortoises as first port of call, especially so many in such a young tortoise, did they run any kind of tests?

Your temperature and humidity readings sound spot on, I do unfortunately think you’ve been sold a sick baby from the get go here, I don’t think it’s anything you’ve done or that there’s anything off with your care routine.

I’m hoping others will chime in with what they think to your vet visit and what’s been prescribed, hopefully they can help guide in moving forward and if that vet is even worth going to. Some of the things they’ve said definitely sound off to me.

Either way, it’s clear you’re doing your best, I think unfortunately it’s possible this baby may fail to thrive, I’m hoping that won’t be the case and they’ll be a turn around, but I do want you to prepare yourself and most importantly not beat yourself up! You’ve done a great job with your enclosure, nothing about how you’re keeping them is making them sick

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@cooky_luvs you saw this baby on a thread just over a week ago and mentioned the possibility of hatchling breeder failure, would you agree it’s looking more and more likely to be the case here based on all the symptoms?

 

[Tom]

Hello I recently bought a baby leopard tortoise from a reptile show . But seemed sick due to blue dark eyes so I switched a closed chamber enclosure . But recently he stopped eating about a week ago and became sluggish . Took him to vet and they said he was septic and he was not looking well. But it was not a lost cause , suspect hypocalcemia & suspect Sepsis . He had a soft shell, slight colored plaster on, His eyes were watery and puffed up. But 2 things the vet mentioned took me by surprise #1 my humidity was too high and needed to be dropped to 60-70 , #2 No daily soakings ,

2 things mentioned religiously on this forum . Keep high humidity for babies and soak babies daily if possible . Is there such thing as too high humidity? And I would assume the soak would help with eye being shut ? She said to leave greenhouse slightly unzipped to get humidity down to 60-70 , and soak 1-2x a week only .They gave him Fortaz,calcium gluconate, , vitamin injection , vitamin B12 , and vitamin A&D . And 7 shots of fortaz for every 72 hrs cycle and 7 shots of calcium for every 24hr .


Don’t get me wrong they were very professional and excellent service . But wanted to get opinions from others.

My reads

DAY TIME 12 Hr Basking cycle
Basking 97F 77%
Warm 93F 85%
Cool 90F 90%
Hide 88F 94%

NIGHT TIME CHE set to 83
Basking 82F 94%
Warm 82F 99%
Cool 82F 99%
Hide 82F 99%

Reptibark, substrate , he’s a picky eater only eats hibiscus and clovers , he wouldn’t touch pellets dry or wet or anything with reptibark. I would soak him every morning for 30 min in warm water . He never goes in his hide .

View attachment 379528View attachment 379531

...sigh...

You spent a whole bunch of money for a misdiagnosis and mistreatment. All that stuff they did is only going to hasten this little baby's imminent demise.

Vets don't know tortoise care. They learn their tortoise care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else. Sorry. That's just how it is. This baby isn't suffering from hypocalcemia or hypovitaminosis. It's suffering from kidney failure because it was started all wrong, too dry, and not soaked often enough. Kidney failure causes the symptoms that your vet is seeing. Vitamin and calcium injections are too much for their little systems to handle even when they are healthy and nothing is wrong.

Here is what is going on:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

Look at the date of this old thread.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

...sigh...

You spent a whole bunch of money for a misdiagnosis and mistreatment. All that stuff they did is only going to hasten this little baby's imminent demise.

Vets don't know tortoise care. They learn their tortoise care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else. Sorry. That's just how it is. This baby isn't suffering from hypocalcemia or hypovitaminosis. It's suffering from kidney failure because it was started all wrong, too dry, and not soaked often enough. Kidney failure causes the symptoms that your vet is seeing. Vitamin and calcium injections are too much for their little systems to handle even when they are healthy and nothing is wrong.

Here is what is going on:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

Look at the date of this old thread.

Yeah you’ve affirmed everything I felt in my gut here, so very unfortunate they have such a wonderful set up for their baby too, it’s not fair

 

[Tom]

Yeah you’ve affirmed everything I felt in my gut here, so very unfortunate they have such a wonderful set up for their baby too, it’s not fair

Look at number 1. There is a reason why it is number 1...

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Look at number 1. There is a reason why it is number 1...

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Absolutely, it’s so damn sad seeing it happen to people, especially when they’ve done so well with their starter set up! but dodgy breeders doom them from the start, infuriating

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@Tom would your suggestion here be to make this baby as comfortable as possible, as in keeping up with a daily soak, offering food, maybe try hand feeding? And most importantly, no more injections, including the Fortaz? I know this may inevitably end sadly, but just interested on how to give the baby the best chance/most comfort

 

[JDDV97]

...sigh...

You spent a whole bunch of money for a misdiagnosis and mistreatment. All that stuff they did is only going to hasten this little baby's imminent demise.

Vets don't know tortoise care. They learn their tortoise care info from the same wrong sources as everyone else. Sorry. That's just how it is. This baby isn't suffering from hypocalcemia or hypovitaminosis. It's suffering from kidney failure because it was started all wrong, too dry, and not soaked often enough. Kidney failure causes the symptoms that your vet is seeing. Vitamin and calcium injections are too much for their little systems to handle even when they are healthy and nothing is wrong.

Here is what is going on:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

Look at the date of this old thread.

Do you recommend me to give him the rest of the fortaz and calcium shots? If he’s not eating , I feel it’s better than nothing no ?

 

[JDDV97]

@Tom would your suggestion here be to make this baby as comfortable as possible, as in keeping up with a daily soak, offering food, maybe try hand feeding? And most importantly, no more injections, including the Fortaz? I know this may inevitably end sadly, but just interested on how to give the baby the best chance/most comfort

So don’t give it calcium or fortaz shots ? But If he’s not moving isn’t this my my only chance of survival? And better than nothing ?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

So don’t give it calcium or fortaz shots ? But If he’s not moving isn’t this my my only chance of survival? And better than nothing ?

Let’s see what Tom thinks, but personally I think the injections will override his young, already poorly systemI think his best bet is keeping up with the routine you already have, though I do think unfortunately his survival chances are slim, through no fault of your own of course! I’m really sorry you’re going through this and I hope it doesn’t put you off tortoise keeping all together, with a baby that’s been started correctly, they would thrive in the set up you’ve created!

 

[cooky_luvs]

@cooky_luvs you saw this baby on a thread just over a week ago and mentioned the possibility of hatchling breeder failure, would you agree it’s looking more and more likely to be the case here based on all the symptoms?

Unfortunately, it’s what I’ve suspected from the very beginning. It was sold to him just way too young and from a seller who openly admitted not knowing Leopard care. Then the poor thing had concerning issues right from the start.

Even in the best conditions, some of them just don’t make it, anyone selling them that young either doesn’t have experience with them or just doesn’t care if it dies on the buyer and wants $$$$.

And as sad as it is vets cannot do anything about breeder failure syndrome / failure to thrive. The color change on the plastron is the organs actually shutting down. There’s little that any antibiotic or vitamin injections can do. the antibiotic Fortaz, I don’t really think will be an issue (but sadly unlikely to help), but the vitamin injections are way too much for a little one. Vets are very quick to give vitamin injections and they don’t test for any sort of deficiency prior. It’s likely there is a vitamin deficiency because the organs are not working properly, but vitamin shots do not fix the organs, so sadly they often do more harm than good. The organs are not going to be able to make use of those vitamins and will be overwhelmed.

@JDDV97 I’m so sorry you’re going through this and it’s really tragic that it’s still so common. You’ve done a great job trying to get his care more proper but the little one had little chance from the beginning. Like @Tom mentioned the only problem was the source you bought from.

 

[Tom]

So don’t give it calcium or fortaz shots ? But If he’s not moving isn’t this my my only chance of survival? And better than nothing ?

The only thing you can do is make sure conditions are optimal and hope for the best. Any vet treatment will complicate things and further tax an already highly taxed system. This baby is in the end stages. This is happening due to kidney failure caused by chronic dehydration, almost certainly done at the breeders or sellers facility. Once the kidneys are fried, they don't come back. If there is still enough functioning kidney, they can pull through with high humidity and high levels of hydration to help flush the toxins out that would normally be filtered out by healthy kidneys. She make it and some don't. Once the plastron goes soft and bruised, the eyes close, and the appetite goes away, they really are not coming back from that.

Sorry man. This is not your fault. When you are ready, we can help you find a healthy well started well hydrated baby.

 

[Dustin]

I don't think it has much bearing on this particular situation but I think its time for our understanding of Hatchling Failure Syndrome to evolve. Proper diet, hydration and humidity may well play a role but the root cause is almost certainly disease. Our understanding of diseases like Austwickia, Cryptospordium and TINC has grown a bit in the last 10-20 years.
We don't know how prevalent these diseases are but some vets I have spoken to believe that some of them are present in every large collection of tortoises. I have visited two large scale breeders of sulcatas out west, both keeping hatchlings in open air tubs with low humidity. Both admitted having serious disease in their collections. One Austwickia, the other Cryptosporidium and TINC. I purchased Radiated Hatchlings from a veterinarian that had Cryptosporidium.

If you drew a venn diagram of dirtbag breeders selling sick animals and breeders starting their hatchlings too dry it would probably be a perfect overlapping circle.

If you really want to know what happened to your tortoise have your vet send it off for necropsy. Your vet can arrange for it to be sent off to the University of Florida whole or they can perform the necropsy and send off tissue samples to UF or to Northwest Zoo Path. Don't accept a necropsy report that is just a gross examination. A specialist needs to look at tissue samples.

 

[JDDV97]

The only thing you can do is make sure conditions are optimal and hope for the best. Any vet treatment will complicate things and further tax an already highly taxed system. This baby is in the end stages. This is happening due to kidney failure caused by chronic dehydration, almost certainly done at the breeders or sellers facility. Once the kidneys are fried, they don't come back. If there is still enough functioning kidney, they can pull through with high humidity and high levels of hydration to help flush the toxins out that would normally be filtered out by healthy kidneys. She make it and some don't. Once the plastron goes soft and bruised, the eyes close, and the appetite goes away, they really are not coming back from that.

Sorry man. This is not your fault. When you are ready, we can help you find a healthy well started well hydrated baby.

This is sim

I don't think it has much bearing on this particular situation but I think its time for our understanding of Hatchling Failure Syndrome to evolve. Proper diet, hydration and humidity may well play a role but the root cause is almost certainly disease. Our understanding of diseases like Austwickia, Cryptospordium and TINC has grown a bit in the last 10-20 years.
We don't know how prevalent these diseases are but some vets I have spoken to believe that some of them are present in every large collection of tortoises. I have visited two large scale breeders of sulcatas out west, both keeping hatchlings in open air tubs with low humidity. Both admitted having serious disease in their collections. One Austwickia, the other Cryptosporidium and TINC. I purchased Radiated Hatchlings from a veterinarian that had Cryptosporidium.

If you drew a venn diagram of dirtbag breeders selling sick animals and breeders starting their hatchlings too dry it would probably be a perfect overlapping circle.

If you really want to know what happened to your tortoise have your vet send it off for necropsy. Your vet can arrange for it to be sent off to the University of Florida whole or they can perform the necropsy and send off tissue samples to UF or to Northwest Zoo Path. Don't accept a necropsy report that is just a gross examination. A specialist needs to look at tissue samples.

I still want to put up a fight for my baby. Do you recommend giving him the remainder of calcium and tropaz shots . If he’s not eating this is my only chance . And want to fight

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This is sim

I still want to put up a fight for my baby. Do you recommend giving him the remainder of calcium and tropaz shots . If he’s not eating this is my only chance . And want to fight

I honestly think the shots will hinder any chance they have, I know they aren’t eating, but the injections are overkill for such a small tortoise, right now hydration is the best bet if they aren’t eating, soaks and high humidity.

I do unfortunately think based on how they’re presenting, it’s probably too latebut don’t let that stop you carrying on with your routine, at the very least it’s making your baby more comfortable

 

[Dustin]

This is sim

I still want to put up a fight for my baby. Do you recommend giving him the remainder of calcium and tropaz shots . If he’s not eating this is my only chance . And want to fight

If it were me I would keep going with the Fortaz. It won't do anything to treat the diseases that I mentioned above but it can help with the secondary bacterial issues that go along with them.

I have no idea if your tortoise has any of these serious diseases and I shouldn't imply that it does. You could find out but you will spend many hundreds or thousands of dollars, the results may come in after it dies, and if you do find out what it has, chances are very high that it is untreatable. Despite my pessimistic outlook there are some good things to be gained by going this route. Your vet is going to learn about emerging tortoise disease along the way with you. You will know who not to buy from again and decide if you want to expose them for selling a sick animal. Lastly it may help you prepare for buying another tortoise in the future since cleaning up after some of these diseases is still an unknown process.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Should I drop my humidity & drop soaks per week ?

NO!!!