your experiment has been done with red eared sliders that i know of , the result i remember was the uvb supplemented group had on average twice the blood level of d3 ....... as far d3 , it's my understanding plants are poor sources , the best sources are animals that produce it themselves , and to get significant absorbtion from dietary d3 i'm fairly sure it requires fat is consumed with it ........... one thing i've seen over the years is turtles and tortoises can persist under much less than ideal conditions for years ..........
Defining / Applying PARAMETERS regarding redfoot tortoises.
- Thread starter Redfoot NERD
- Start date
Was this experiment documented, if do could you point me in the right direction please.
Found it. Thanks.
Here are some resources that are peer-reviewed, science based, and factual regarding redfoots in the wild and captive husbandry that disagree with your current position on UVB, D3, and redfoot behavior:
Chelonian Library 3 South American Tortoises. Chelonoidis carbonaria, C. denticulata and C. chilensis. S. Vinke,
H. Vetter, T. Vinke, and S. Vetter. 2008. Chimaira. ISBN 9783899736038. 355 p. J29.80 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/3899736036/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20)
The Redfoot Manual: A Beginner's Guide To The Redfoot Tortoise by Mike Pingleton.
(https://www.amazon.com/dp/1441494030/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20)
I think those are great starts for anyone reading this thread and viewing your narrow-minded approach to husbandry.
I would add that as a scientist I find it infuriating and defeating to read posts such as this. Science is founded on the scientific method, and as a scientist I (and others) am willing to admit that my observations are not always correct or explainable. I try to explain phenomena using models that incorporate dozens or more parameters (and many covariates) and repeatedly cannot account for all the variation that I see. When I obtain results from my models or experiments that fail to explain my observation(s), I don't cop-out and assign blame to the rest of ecological theory. Instead, I invite fellow researchers to think with me and contribute to my findings (and lack thereof).
Systems are inexplicably complex and pointing to 2-3 parameters to rationalize absolute truth(s) is bold and arrogant. Furthermore when someone counters your claims, passing their years of experience and knowledge off as "rhetoric", is condescending and insulting.
This is the greatest response post in the history of the human race.
@Madkins007. I've searched high and low regarding D3 in insects/grubs and plants. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty amongst scientists and D3 in plants. It's now known some species like I mentioned do have D3 in them and thoughts are other flowering plants also have D3 levels. It's so hard to find info, but reading between the lines there is some unfinished business for scientists in that department. I've looked at that many different sites I've forgotten what's what. But one site did say it's an ongoing experiment. Anyway back to insects, searching I did find some insects contain Vitamin D. A certain type of beetle they studied had Vit D in, but the majority seems to be at larvae,pupae or egg stage. Formicidae family comes up a lot(ant eggs).
I can't link this in because it's a direct PDF, soon as you click it. It downloads. So took a snap shot.
Maybe start a new thread on the topic, your thoughts.
Ain't going to lie, there is a lot of scientific terminology that goes eeeeeeeoooowwww, straight over my head.
About the best literature I can find for invertebrates and vitamin D is research on feeder foods for reptiles and a little about the idea of using invertebrates more as a human food. I suspect the cost of researching vitamin D in things other than human or popular pet foods tends to limit the amount of research done.
The question about D and animals that rarely see sunlight (underground, deep water, cave species, etc.) is a good one. Vitamin D serves many roles, but the main one is metabolizing calcium. It appears that at least some animals have developed other mechanisms for this that do not depend on sunlight, UVb, or vitamin D- including, oddly, rabbits. (Source: "Comparative Animal Nutrition and Metabolism" By Peter R. Cheeke, Ellen Sue Dierenfeld- found this in Google Search, and it has some really interesting things to say about D, calcium, and so on. I may have to get a copy of it!)
Having said all this about vitamin D and the role in redfoots, I do want to point out that while it is pretty clear that they, like other chelonians, need vitamin D- it is far less clear what their dosage is. Animals from the rainforest canopy have higher needs than those from the forest floor. Diurnal desert animals need more than nocturnal desert animals, and so on.
Having said THAT, it is also important to point out that the amount of vitamin D from sunlight varies a LOT as you move from the equator, and is affected by season and cloud cover. Cloudy Nebraska winters provide very little usable UVb, so little that we humans living here tend to be vitamin D deficient much of the year.
So, ideally what we need is to some solid clinical research as to the real vitamin D needs for redfoots, and then a simple UVb chart of your area to know how much supplementation your tortoise needs in your location.
Like I said before- vitamin D, UVb, and calcium is a pretty complicated issue. The best widely accepted practice until we have some definitive answers is to provide as much unfiltered sunlight as reasonably practical (while ensure they have access to shade and hides), to use a UVb bulb indoors (again, with shade and hides), to offer a balanced diet with a good variety of nutrients, and to consider using an appropriate dose of vitamin D supplement- especially if you choose to not use a UVb bulb for some reason.
Like I said before- vitamin D, UVb, and calcium is a pretty complicated issue. The best widely accepted practice until we have some definitive answers is to provide as much unfiltered sunlight as reasonably practical (while ensure they have access to shade and hides), to use a UVb bulb indoors (again, with shade and hides), to offer a balanced diet with a good variety of nutrients, and to consider using an appropriate dose of vitamin D supplement- especially if you choose to not use a UVb bulb for some reason.
Well said.
I would add this to the original idea of parameters that Terry Kilgore started with...
The addition of a reasonable amount of sunlight (or its nearest electronic equivalent) to a growing red-footed tortoise is just common sense. Of course, lighting should not be extreme and be provided in a way that the tortoise can choose to enter or leave the illuminated area at will. Sometimes a keeper might get the idea in their head that 'sunlight' means providing a tanning bed for their hatchling tortoise! As was brought out in some of the above comments, try to provide lighting that is both quality AND in a way that the tortoise can feel secure while exposing itself to it. Humidity along with the lighting is also hugely important.
The addition of a varied diet serves two purposes: First, as Madkins007 pointed out, the varied diet helps insure that all of the needed nutrients and micro-nutrients will be ingested. Second, providing a varied diet helps one to avoid the pitfall of a tortoise that is habituated to only one, or a few food items.
Well said.
I would add this to the original idea of parameters that Terry Kilgore started with...
The addition of a reasonable amount of sunlight (or its nearest electronic equivalent) to a growing red-footed tortoise is just common sense. Of course, lighting should not be extreme and be provided in a way that the tortoise can choose to enter or leave the illuminated area at will. Sometimes a keeper might get the idea in their head that 'sunlight' means providing a tanning bed for their hatchling tortoise! As was brought out in some of the above comments, try to provide lighting that is both quality AND in a way that the tortoise can feel secure while exposing itself to it. Humidity along with the lighting is also hugely important.
The addition of a varied diet serves two purposes: First, as Madkins007 pointed out, the varied diet helps insure that all of the needed nutrients and micro-nutrients will be ingested. Second, providing a varied diet helps one to avoid the pitfall of a tortoise that is habituated to only one, or a few food items.
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