Defining / Applying PARAMETERS regarding redfoot tortoises.

[Redfoot NERD]

The dictionary definition of parameter: A constant whose values determine the operation or characteristics of a system.

NERD interprets that as : there are basics that are universal that only vary by APPLICATION. Basics are basic... which only may vary depending where on the planet we keep redfoot tortoises. [ or any other species ]

Lighting as a parameter is typical with redfoot tortoises. They [ by comparison to 'herbivorous' species ] are not baskers that require the D3 from the sunlight - which ties in with Diet as a parameter - because redfoots are 'omnivorous' .. they eat [ among other things ] animal protein which combined provides D3 needed.

Temperature as a parameter is typical with redfoot tortoises. .. but the APPLICATION can vary considerably by geographic location.. which should be obvious.

Humidity as a parameter is also typical... but again the APPLICATION can vary considerably by geographic location.

So the point of this thread is - as example - Adeen in Arizona has to really 'pump-up' the Humidity parameter because of the low ambient humidity where she lives - TO KEEP IT IN BALANCE.

Douglas in Southern Florida has no problems with temperature.. whereas Suzie in Delaware has to 'heat-up' the Temps TO KEEP IT IN BALANCE. The examples are endless.

Parameters are constant ----- Applications are variable. ( there are always exceptions or extremes.. as should be obvious ).

 

[Anyfoot]

Terry.
We've talked about D3 in food sources and of course UVB before. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3.
Hopefully I will get a few hatchlings from my next clutch, then the intention is to run 2 identical enclosures, one with a uvb strip light at the lighter end of the enclosure and one with a normal strip light(no uvb) at the lighter end of the enclosure. Everything else the same.
2 questions.

1. To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.

2. You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.

 

[Pearly]

Terry.
We've talked about D3 in food sources and of course UVB before. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3.
Hopefully I will get a few hatchlings from my next clutch, then the intention is to run 2 identical enclosures, one with a uvb strip light at the lighter end of the enclosure and one with a normal strip light(no uvb) at the lighter end of the enclosure. Everything else the same.
2 questions.

1. To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.

2. You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.

Excuse my ignorance, but why no animal protein till 6 months old? I didn't wait 6 months and protein treats were one of the things i used to encouraged my little Tucker to eat. I then didn't know about the 6 months things

 

[MichaelaW]

Terry.
We've talked about D3 in food sources and of course UVB before. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3.
Hopefully I will get a few hatchlings from my next clutch, then the intention is to run 2 identical enclosures, one with a uvb strip light at the lighter end of the enclosure and one with a normal strip light(no uvb) at the lighter end of the enclosure. Everything else the same.
2 questions.

1. To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.

2. You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.

I have three yearling Manouria and two 2.5 year old forstenii raised indoors since hatchlings with no UVB lighting and only occasional animal protein. All are exhibiting impressive, smooth, and beautiful growth. I do occasionally use calcium with D3.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry.
We've talked about D3 in food sources and of course UVB before. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3.
Hopefully I will get a few hatchlings from my next clutch, then the intention is to run 2 identical enclosures, one with a uvb strip light at the lighter end of the enclosure and one with a normal strip light(no uvb) at the lighter end of the enclosure. Everything else the same.
2 questions.

1. To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.

2. You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.

will reply to yours directly @Anyfoot

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Excuse my ignorance, but why no animal protein till 6 months old? I didn't wait 6 months and protein treats were one of the things i used to encouraged my little Tucker to eat. I then didn't know about the 6 months things

@Pearly .. the 6 months things was a term to be sure they didn't O.D. on vitamin D - since D is retained in the 'fat'.. unlike Calcium which is water soluble [ washes out of system.. is NOT retained ] Vitamin D can be toxic in extreme high doses!

I found out early on that 'most' redfoot keepers... think that if 1 is good then 2 must be better... and they did more harm than good!!!

 

[Pearly]

@Pearly .. the 6 months things was a term to be sure they didn't O.D. on vitamin D - since D is retained in the 'fat'.. unlike Calcium which is water soluble [ washes out of system.. is NOT retained ] Vitamin D can be toxic in extreme high doses!

I found out early on that 'most' redfoot keepers... think that if 1 is good then 2 must be better... and they did more harm than good!!!

I see! It makes sense. Thank you @Redfoot NERD

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry.
We've talked about D3 in food sources and of course UVB before. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3.
Hopefully I will get a few hatchlings from my next clutch, then the intention is to run 2 identical enclosures, one with a uvb strip light at the lighter end of the enclosure and one with a normal strip light(no uvb) at the lighter end of the enclosure. Everything else the same.
2 questions.

1. To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.

2. You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.

@Anyfoot .. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3. It's your money Craig.. to spend on the expensive UVB bulbs.


1 - To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.
Seldom do I take my hatchlings out into real sunshine the first 2-3 years.. every time I do they run for shade as quick as they can!
In the wild they are under cover for who knows how long - so they won't get eaten for one thing. Friends in South America have redfoots running wild in their "back yards" - no fences, etc. They have told me they seldom if ever see any smaller than 6" or so. So where have they been for the first 3-4 years?

2. - You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.
From their Diet of mushrooms and dandelions and black plums. Where do they get it in the wild? The tiny plant shoots and probably bugs and grubs, etc. --- They don't eat while they absorb the yolk-sac.. that's what they thrive on during that time. Once the yolk is absorbed is when they take their first bite of greens, etc..

The following is strictly for reference.. what I and others have experienced that have gone by these guide-lines... BALANCING PARAMETERS
Three hatchlings from October 1998 grew to be females that laid fertile eggs sometime in late 2004 that hatched in February 2005. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age.. that one of my hatchlings laid eggs! One of those in particular went to a friend. She grew up to lay fertile eggs in late 2011.. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age. Wonder if that is a sign that something must be IN BALANCE.?

Since February 2005 I've hatched well over 200 .. so this is a pattern I've observed - NONE EVER SAW ARTIFICIAL UVB LIGHT FOR THE FIRST 4 -6 WEEKS ... BEFORE THEY WERE SOLD. ---- Or ever... of the number that I've grown up since 1998.

 

[Anyfoot]

@Anyfoot .. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3. It's your money Craig.. to spend on the expensive UVB bulbs.


1 - To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.
Seldom do I take my hatchlings out into real sunshine the first 2-3 years.. every time I do they run for shade as quick as they can!
In the wild they are under cover for who knows how long - so they won't get eaten for one thing. Friends in South America have redfoots running wild in their "back yards" - no fences, etc. They have told me they seldom if ever see any smaller than 6" or so. So where have they been for the first 3-4 years?

2. - You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.
From their Diet of mushrooms and dandelions and black plums. Where do they get it in the wild? The tiny plant shoots and probably bugs and grubs, etc. --- They don't eat while they absorb the yolk-sac.. that's what they thrive on during that time. Once the yolk is absorbed is when they take their first bite of greens, etc..

The following is strictly for reference.. what I and others have experienced that have gone by these guide-lines... BALANCING PARAMETERS
Three hatchlings from October 1998 grew to be females that laid fertile eggs sometime in late 2004 that hatched in February 2005. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age.. that one of my hatchlings laid eggs! One of those in particular went to a friend. She grew up to lay fertile eggs in late 2011.. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age. Wonder if that is a sign that something must be IN BALANCE.?

Since February 2005 I've hatched well over 200 .. so this is a pattern I've observed - NONE EVER SAW ARTIFICIAL UVB LIGHT FOR THE FIRST 4 -6 WEEKS ... BEFORE THEY WERE SOLD. ---- Or ever... of the number that I've grown up since 1998.

So to sum up what you just said and to make it Cristal clear.

You've had in just over a 12yr period 2 generations that have produced fertile eggs, both these generations had no real or artificial UVB for at least the first 2yrs of their life. Totally relying on diet for D3 source.
You've never used any D3 supplements either.
Btw, I assume all low fat catfood has D3 in its ingredients just like bugs and grubs do.

That's very interesting that your SA friends hardly ever see young torts in their garden.

 

[Pearly]

Thank you for the topic, @Redfoot NERD. This is very interesting

 

[mark1]

basking under vegetative cover is a pretty common way turtles and tortoises sun themselves ....... my redfoots spent most of their time in the daylilies ......young box and wood turtles sit under clumps of overhanging grass , or partially covered in leaf litter and dirt . if you know where they are you can clearly see them , if you don't , you'd never see them .......... sitting out in the open is not the only way turtles and tortoises get sun .........;. if you ever seen adult blandings or wood turtles sitting among water vegetation in full sun , clearly visible if you know they're there , you'd get an appreciation for their shell patterns

 

[cdmay]

basking under vegetative cover is a pretty common way turtles and tortoises sun themselves ....... my redfoots spent most of their time in the daylilies ......young box and wood turtles sit under clumps of overhanging grass , or partially covered in leaf litter and dirt . if you know where they are you can clearly see them , if you don't , you'd never see them .......... sitting out in the open is not the only way turtles and tortoises get sun .........;. if you ever seen adult blandings or wood turtles sitting among water vegetation in full sun , clearly visible if you know they're there , you'd get an appreciation for their shell patterns

Agree completely. That smaller terrestrial turtles and tortoises are seldom observed in the wild does not in any way mean that they are not exposing themselves to sunlight. Experienced field biologists can reliably locate juvenile box turtles and other species (including red-footed tortoises) by knowing when and where to look for them. One of the most universal micro-habitats? You guessed it, patches of sunlight mosaic where they are clearly seeking the sunshine. True, take a little red-foot and plunk it down out in the open in direct sunlight and it will run for cover because for one, you just freaked it out and made it feel completely defenseless and exposed. Second, it has no relation to where it is, where it might hide, and how it found itself out in the blazing sun. But that same little tortoise, once established in a secure garden will absolutely bask and get sunlight in cryptic locations.

Another point I thought I'd comment on...that a captive raised female tortoise (of any species) was bred and produced fertile eggs at only 6 years of eggs does not in any way mean that it was raised in a 'balanced' state. Quite the opposite, a female red-foot tortoise breeding at so young an age means that it was raised unnaturally and achieved it's 'maturity' long before it ever would have if raised in the wild. While it is true that all of us have captive bred tortoises that grow quickly--far faster than they would if not in captivity, it would be a mistake to assume that their size means they are 'mature'.
Remember, just because a female can be bred and produce offspring at a young age does not mean that it is a good thing. Wild female Barbour's map turtles do not become sexually mature until nearly 20 years old. But they can be pushed in captivity to breeding within a third (or less) of this time. Is that good? Would any sensible keeper assume that a female red-foot tortoise that was pushed into breeding at only 6 years of age expect that this female would live the same amount of time that she otherwise would if she was wild raised?
If we've learned anything from the captive breeding of reptiles in the past 35 years it's this: Female snakes (especially the longer lived boas and pythons), lizards and even some species of turtles that are quickly raised for the purpose of being nothing but breeders, live a fraction of the time they might had they been given more thoughtful care. The same is probably true of tortoises but since even a short-lived tortoise lives a long time, it's hard to document.

Also consider this, you can take a number of elementary school girls of about 10 years of age and indeed impregnate them--- and they will have babies. Would you then conclude that they had been raised in a balanced state? Should the parents boast about their daughters fecundity and how well they were raised?
Probably not.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thank you for the topic, @Redfoot NERD. This is very interesting

As usual @Pearly .. "they" have taken this thread way beyond it's purpose.. ( which almost always causes confusion ) - but that's what they do. I made the mistake of saying the "HOT-BUTTON" word UVB and Diet.

Anything that may be said from here is merely additional meaningless rhetoric Pearl.. in relation to Defining and Balancing Parameters.. anyway.

 

[allegraf]

No, you stand by your statement and take the discussion. This is how everyone learns. Either defend your position with facts or admit you may be wrong. Do not blame it on others. This is the whole point of this forum.

 

[Madkins007]

@Pearly .. the 6 months things was a term to be sure they didn't O.D. on vitamin D - since D is retained in the 'fat'.. unlike Calcium which is water soluble [ washes out of system.. is NOT retained ] Vitamin D can be toxic in extreme high doses!

I found out early on that 'most' redfoot keepers... think that if 1 is good then 2 must be better... and they did more harm than good!!!

Vitamin D overdose-
1. You CANNOT overdose on vitamin D from sunlight- there is a biological system that prevents that.
2. It is REALLY HARD to overdose vitamin D from diet since almost no foods contain much vitamin D naturally. (Even mushrooms only contain very small amounts of vitamin D, and it is the weaker form of D2.)
2a. Dietary sources of vitamin D that appear in the redfoot range are: liver meat, egg yolks, fatty fish, and mushrooms. Some fatty fish would contain enough vitamin D to satisfy the needs of a reptile with the tortoise's body weight, but they would have to eat a lot of liver or eggs, and more then their weight in mushrooms to accomplish this. No field studies of redfoots has ever shown that they eat enough of this kind of stuff to matter. (Sources: field studies by Vinke, Vetter, and Moscovitz, etc.)
3. It would take a dose of about 10 times the usual daily dose over time to overdose on D. Normal doses would not do it.
4. The main complication of vitamin D overdose is hyper-calcification. (Sources: Dr. Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery book, wikipedia, and other sources.)

Excess calcium-
1. Excess calcium is usually excreted in the feces, not the urine. If it is in the urine, there is TOO MUCH calcium in the body.
2. Overdoses of calcium are common and cause problems in humans and animals.
3. Calcium imbalance is a common and serious problem as well. Calcium that is not properly balanced by potassium, iron, vitamin D, and other nutrients will cause skeletal problems and affect the nerves and other systems. (Sources: Same as above.)

 

[Madkins007]

So to sum up what you just said and to make it Cristal clear.

You've had in just over a 12yr period 2 generations that have produced fertile eggs, both these generations had no real or artificial UVB for at least the first 2yrs of their life. Totally relying on diet for D3 source.
You've never used any D3 supplements either.
Btw, I assume all low fat catfood has D3 in its ingredients just like bugs and grubs do.

That's very interesting that your SA friends hardly ever see young torts in their garden.

Bugs and grubs and vitamin D:
If you have any info on the D levels in invertebrates, I would like to see it. References tend to not list D levels in feeder insects since they don't have much. (Sources: http://www.fao.org/docrep/018/i3253e/i3253e06.pdf, http://www.moonvalleyreptiles.com/crested-geckos/diet-nutrition/feeder-insects, etc.)

Pet foods, whether canned or kibble, often have liver meat and vitamin D supplements in them. The problem from a reptile care point of view is that the D level is rarely published, so we don't know what sort of doses we are giving. Whatever it is, it is probably very low, just as it is in almost all multivitamin mixes. Combine this with the small amounts of cat kibble that is often recommended, it is not safe to assume they are getting enough D3 from their diet.

 

[Madkins007]

@Anyfoot .. I have not yet plucked up the courage to omit UVB lighting to rely 100% on the diet for D3. It's your money Craig.. to spend on the expensive UVB bulbs.


1 - To what sort of age have you grown hatchlings to without any real or artificial UVB source.
Seldom do I take my hatchlings out into real sunshine the first 2-3 years.. every time I do they run for shade as quick as they can!
In the wild they are under cover for who knows how long - so they won't get eaten for one thing. Friends in South America have redfoots running wild in their "back yards" - no fences, etc. They have told me they seldom if ever see any smaller than 6" or so. So where have they been for the first 3-4 years?

2. - You don't feed animal protein until they are 6 months old, where do they get the D3 from during this first 6 months? I can only assume it's mushrooms and maybe there is some vitamin D in the original eggsack that lasts out this period.
From their Diet of mushrooms and dandelions and black plums. Where do they get it in the wild? The tiny plant shoots and probably bugs and grubs, etc. --- They don't eat while they absorb the yolk-sac.. that's what they thrive on during that time. Once the yolk is absorbed is when they take their first bite of greens, etc..

The following is strictly for reference.. what I and others have experienced that have gone by these guide-lines... BALANCING PARAMETERS
Three hatchlings from October 1998 grew to be females that laid fertile eggs sometime in late 2004 that hatched in February 2005. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age.. that one of my hatchlings laid eggs! One of those in particular went to a friend. She grew up to lay fertile eggs in late 2011.. That was right at 6 years and a month or two of age. Wonder if that is a sign that something must be IN BALANCE.?

Since February 2005 I've hatched well over 200 .. so this is a pattern I've observed - NONE EVER SAW ARTIFICIAL UVB LIGHT FOR THE FIRST 4 -6 WEEKS ... BEFORE THEY WERE SOLD. ---- Or ever... of the number that I've grown up since 1998.

2. "from their diet of... dandelions and black plums." Plums and dandelions contain 0 iU's of vitamin D. You can check this on any food nutrition site.
"and probably bugs and grubs..." No nutritional chart for invertebrates shows any significant levels of vitamin D in them.

 

[Madkins007]

Agree completely. That smaller terrestrial turtles and tortoises are seldom observed in the wild does not in any way mean that they are not exposing themselves to sunlight. Experienced field biologists can reliably locate juvenile box turtles and other species (including red-footed tortoises) by knowing when and where to look for them. One of the most universal micro-habitats? You guessed it, patches of sunlight mosaic where they are clearly seeking the sunshine. True, take a little red-foot and plunk it down out in the open in direct sunlight and it will run for cover because for one, you just freaked it out and made it feel completely defenseless and exposed. Second, it has no relation to where it is, where it might hide, and how it found itself out in the blazing sun. But that same little tortoise, once established in a secure garden will absolutely bask and get sunlight in cryptic locations.

Another point I thought I'd comment on...that a captive raised female tortoise (of any species) was bred and produced fertile eggs at only 6 years of eggs does not in any way mean that it was raised in a 'balanced' state. Quite the opposite, a female red-foot tortoise breeding at so young an age means that it was raised unnaturally and achieved it's 'maturity' long before it ever would have if raised in the wild. While it is true that all of us have captive bred tortoises that grow quickly--far faster than they would if not in captivity, it would be a mistake to assume that their size means they are 'mature'.
Remember, just because a female can be bred and produce offspring at a young age does not mean that it is a good thing. Wild female Barbour's map turtles do not become sexually mature until nearly 20 years old. But they can be pushed in captivity to breeding within a third (or less) of this time. Is that good? Would any sensible keeper assume that a female red-foot tortoise that was pushed into breeding at only 6 years of age expect that this female would live the same amount of time that she otherwise would if she was wild raised?
If we've learned anything from the captive breeding of reptiles in the past 35 years it's this: Female snakes (especially the longer lived boas and pythons), lizards and even some species of turtles that are quickly raised for the purpose of being nothing but breeders, live a fraction of the time they might had they been given more thoughtful care. The same is probably true of tortoises but since even a short-lived tortoise lives a long time, it's hard to document.

Also consider this, you can take a number of elementary school girls of about 10 years of age and indeed impregnate them--- and they will have babies. Would you then conclude that they had been raised in a balanced state? Should the parents boast about their daughters fecundity and how well they were raised?
Probably not.

Just to add to the bit about UVb and Shade:
Vegetation does not block UVb, but it does moderate it. Do not confuse UVb radiation with visible light. UVb is blocked by glass and plastic, but only partly by plants. There are several sites that discuss this, but one example is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16005208

 

[Madkins007]

As usual @Pearly .. "they" have taken this thread way beyond it's purpose.. ( which almost always causes confusion ) - but that's what they do. I made the mistake of saying the "HOT-BUTTON" word UVB and Diet.

Anything that may be said from here is merely additional meaningless rhetoric Pearl.. in relation to Defining and Balancing Parameters.. anyway.

Nope. YOU have taken complex issues (caring for redfoots outside of their native ranges, UVB and diet) and both oversimplified them AND made statements that are factually wrong. 'They' are members of the forum with every right to post and try to be helpful. 'They' are experienced keepers who care about the wellbeing of tortoises and their keepers more than trying to push some unscientific personal agenda. 'They' are not spreading misinformation.

What is it with you and spreading these sorts of lies? You lie about the climate and range redfoots come from, you've lied about their basking habits, you've lied about your own lies. You've been shown reliable records and resources and still cling to wildly wrong ideas like the total myth that 'redfoots are mainly a rainforest species'.

 

[Anyfoot]

Bugs and grubs and vitamin D:
If you have any info on the D levels in invertebrates, I would like to see it. References tend to not list D levels in feeder insects since they don't have much. (Sources: http://www.fao.org/docrep/018/i3253e/i3253e06.pdf, http://www.moonvalleyreptiles.com/crested-geckos/diet-nutrition/feeder-insects, etc.)

Pet foods, whether canned or kibble, often have liver meat and vitamin D supplements in them. The problem from a reptile care point of view is that the D level is rarely published, so we don't know what sort of doses we are giving. Whatever it is, it is probably very low, just as it is in almost all multivitamin mixes. Combine this with the small amounts of cat kibble that is often recommended, it is not safe to assume they are getting enough D3 from their diet.

Mark, I was restating nerds statement, does he see catfood as an equivalent to grubs for Vit D. However I will do some serious searching as I believe vitamin D may be in grubs etc. Ive asked before and got no answer, how does a mole that lives under the ground get Vit D for healthy bone growth, is it worms?
Same with plants, I tried researching Vit D in plants and animals, it's hard. I did find some scientific study on the solanum plant family, they contain Vit D, and it's suspect that many other plants do, I'm guessing there's no money to be made in finding out if a sow thistle has vid D in it for example. Are there members of the solanum family that are edible? I did link this study on here somewhere in the hope someone would help me/us getting a better understanding of Vit D in plants, but nothing came of it.
We can all make statements about this and that but purely from the Vit D aspect of nerds methods, he's raised healthy torts without UVB. How? To find out would be to extract all the nerds parameters and study.
I want to learn more about Vit D.
Do you have any literature that says there is no Vit D in grubs and bugs? Has this been proved?
I haven't read your links yet, will do tonight.