Diet Change for Zsa Zsa and Zayco

[miss_kristyn]

I am a new member and a recent buyer of two tortoise they were a year old when I got them, they are now I want to say a year and six months. One is a sulcata (Zayco) and the other is a Russian (Zsa Zsa). They are up most friendly with me now and wonderful members of my family! I have done so much research on them lately, that my mind is spinning. I immediately changed there tank when I got them from a glass enclosure to a rubbermaid tank, biggest I could find. Though my problem is this... I was feeding them a regular diet of romaine lettuce (I actually found many sites that say they should eat this) till I started doing more research and found high rated sites and owners who say that is a big no no. So, I have went and bought there proper diet of this....tortoise monster diet, grassland tortoise yummies, 2:1 (I have always used), though my problem is they aren't wanting to eat it, so I put some carrots in there and they want to eat only that. My russian (ZsaZsa) loves the yummies well the catcus moist things though eats very little! So should I be concerned with them not eating this? Should I give it a week? Should I mix little bits of lettuce with them to attract them to the other food?

I am also building a tortoise table with trays built in so I may grow other plants for them.

Any foods or brands people recommend or general advice??

 

[Kristina]

First things first... Are you keeping them together? The reason I ask is that the Sulcata may very well be dominating and bullying the Russian. Both Sulcatas and Russians are solitary tortoises, and are better off kept alone. The only reason to keep them together is that you want to. They do not need company and will be happier and less stressed if they are alone.

I have seen some injuries that torts have inflicted on each other, and it can be nasty.

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/russiantortoisecombat.htm

Now, the diet. Rather than purchasing a commercial food, you would be better off to feed a diet geared towards each species. Sulcatas and Russians have different dietary needs.

In my opinion you are very right not to feed romaine lettuce. I see it suggested as a "good" food item all the time, and I am 100% against it. It has a significantly poor Calcium: Phosphorus ratio, 0.8:1 to be exact, and the recommended ratio is no less than 2:1, (phosphorus binds calcium and blocks absorption) and it is too high in moisture content. Diets that are high in moisture can lead to pyramiding. The nutrient content of romaine is not worth the tummy space.

Carrots: High in oxalic acid, Ca: P ratio of only 0.6:1 (Not good at all.) The only reason I can think of to feed carrots is for vitamin A (beta carotene.) However, this can just as well be provided for by offering Plantago major, or broadleaf plantain. It is a very significant source of vit. A and should be included in ALL tortoise diets, IMHO. The best part... It is a WEED. Most of the time you can pick it from just about anywhere. I can also buy it dried from my local natural food store.

Here is a link to a proper diet for a Sulcata

http://www.sulcata-station.org/diet.html

Here is a link to a proper diet for a Russian (and others, GREAT page!)

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm

Sulcatas need a high fiber, low protein diet based on dry grasses. Russians are more suited to a diet of broad-leafed weeds.

If you have any more questions, fire away!

Kristina

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Yes, there's a lot of mis-information out there and it can all be very confusing. Don't keep your animals together. Each species has pathogens that are indigenous to it's own species and could very well make the other species sick or dead. Russian tortoises are much more aggressive then most people would believe. I see that both of your guys are still babies so the Sulcata isn't quite at the bullying age, but the Russian is. They don't require the same care, so you really need to separate them. The sooner you do that the better off they'll be. You need to change the substrate. Generally most keepers use a combination of eco-earth and sand mixed 50/50. I keeep my animals on fine grade orchid bark. For both of them you want to keep the substrate moist. More moist for the Sulcata. In the middle of winter it's really hard to find the grasses and weeds that these guys should eat. So I suggest getting packaged Spring Mix from the produce section at your store. Then mix in chicory, red and green leaf lettuces, endive, escarole, collards, dandelions, kale, and or any combination of those. If you can get grape leaves or mulberry leaves, hibiscus, rose blossoms, plantain. I'll give you a couple of links to care sheets, read the care sheets and those will list a lot of the available food that I'm not going to type out here. So you will see the stuff you can get, then you should sprinkle chopped hay over the greens. I'll give you a link to a place that sells the hay chopped up fine for tiny mouths. So you'll feed the greens with the hay sprinkled over the top. I'm hoping that you have UVB lights and basking lights for them, and a warming light for night time.
I know this is a lot to take all in. But those are 2 little lives that are depending on you to care for them correctly...Please continue to ask questions, that's the only way you'll learn...and we are glad to help...here's the care sheets...

http://africantortoise.com/

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/sulcatacare.htm

and the hay or other supplies, he sells seeds too...so you could grow your own stuff...
http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php

I hope we have helped you and that you aren't too confused...
I almost forgot for the Russian...
http://www.russiantortoise.org/

 

[miss_kristyn]

These two have always been together.... they have never had any problems bullying or fighting. They both sleep together and eat at different times and when they eat together they eat on opposite sides of the food dish. Though I will separate if that is what should be done. Yes, the soil is wrong and I am correcting it with the tortoise table that is being built by my finance , I was misinformed that sand may get into there small eyes and cause infections (I believed this cause it seems feasible), though after watching clips and looking at pictures these tortoises are used to sand etc. But, thank you for the concern.

Lighting- Yes, I am using correct daytime lighting. Now on the warming light at night what is best for that? Do I need many bulbs or just one?

Feeding- Does everyone grow there own grass inside the cage? Or do you clip safe outside grass? Or do you buy it in bags? Also with dry grass like the hays my tortoises will not touch it... is there something else I could do for that? Can someone give me an everyday example diet they would do for the young ones?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I told you exactly how to feed in my previous post. I said to get the Spring mix and I told you how to mix it up. I understand that your tortoises won't like hay at first, but if you start to feed correctly over a period of time they will get used to it and eat like they are supposed to. Buy the chopped salad type hay from Carolina Pet Supply that way you don't have to cut it up yourself. Reread my previous post, I told you how to feed, I gave you explicit directions and links. I thought that was helping you, I'm sorry...I don't know what else to say...

 

[Kristina]

The reason that they sleep together is that both happen to like the conditions in that particular spot It really has nothing to do with companionship. In a very short period of time, you are going to have a Sulcata that is several times larger than the Russian. The Russian will not get any larger than 10" MAXIMUM (and that is a BIG Russian, usually they are 4-8") and the Sulcata is going to get to be 24" or more and 110lbs or more!

Signs of dominance can be very subtle, but bottom line is that it does cause them stress to be kept together. Even though they seem to eat together peacefully, it causes stress because they only view each other as competition for food.

I don't grow my own grass right in the cage. I like to limit food intake, especially for my piggy Sulcatas. They do eat their hay substrate, but it is just dried grass and should not cause any over feeding problems.

Russians typically do not like grass hay. Younger Sulcatas do not either. The best way to be sneaky is to grind the hay to a powder in a coffee grinder, and sprinkle it over dampened greens. That way they get the fiber that they need. I don't personally soak my hay, but I do dampen it to make it more appealing. Cutting it up with a pair of scissors makes it easier to feed the young ones. Don't be discouraged if they do not take to it right away.

It is hard to give an every day example because I feed a slightly different diet everyday. I use what I have available, and then switch to something else. As long as you are feeding foods that are listed on the links we have provided for you (although again I disagree with feeding ANY type of lettuce, ever) you should be fine. It isn't necessary to provide a varied salad everyday as long as they are getting a varied diet over about a weeks time.

You are doing the right thing in asking questions and trying to do what is best for your babies. It can be a lot to take in in the beginning, but we are here to help. If you have any questions do not hesistate to ask.

Kristina

 

[miss_kristyn]

Okay I got two tables being built! I am sorry for not being more specific one my question to maggie3fan (I can see you are irritated). I just after reading your post ordered the correct seeding from the site you posted. I did see the spring mix substitute you suggested but the other types of foods you put I have not seen other than in seed form. I was meaning to ask about food for the time being other than lettuces being there main diet (read all lettuces should not be main diet) and before the seeds arrive and are grown what is a good meal plan mixture for their present day feedings. I did not mean to offend you by thinking I over looked your post. I just wanted some good diet plans before the real food gets here and is grown. And I read those sites on my own exploration of the Internet, though thank you for the advice and the correct knowledgeable sites.

Kyryah thanks for the helpful hint of grinding the hay, never thought of that trick! I am going to an exotic pet store in a bit to see what they have to offer.

And I did know these two were not going to be room-mates for life. I just figured they enjoyed each others company... when they roam on the floor they go opposite directions of each other for a few steps then when the other catches a glimpse of the other they go towards the other and stay around each other.... though if I was them and was in a room with huge humans I would like the comfort of another tortoise the same size as myself

 

[Kristina]

The concept of comfort is placing human emotions on a non-human entity. They do not feel in those terms. They may be curious about each other, but they do not take comfort from each other. Even in the wild, tortoises are solitary. Company is limited to breeding times, and even then they can get very rough with each other.

You will find that most reptiles are solitary animals. They do not often live in any sort of colony. It is survival of the fittest, which is exactly why they have survived billiions of years of evolution.

"Desert tortoises are territorial and may fight to the death"

http://www.animalhospitals-usa.com/reptiles/tortoise_in_the_wild.html

"Tortoises are basically solitary animals. People sometimes ask me, 'Could you take in my tortoise because its terrarium mate has just died and now it is lonely'. Too often we use our own requirements as a measure for our pets. A tortoise is generally just as happy alone, often even happier than with another animal or in a group."

http://www.podarcis.nl/info/landschildpuk.php3

It does not matter the species, it is the same.


Kristina

 

[Yvonne G]

One BIG clue for you to see that the two tortoises are not thriving from being together and having the same care is the fact that the little Russian is growing badly pyramided while the little sulcata is quite smooth.

Yvonne

 

[Kristina]

I noticed the pyramiding also. It is quite advanced for one so young.

Kristina

 

[miss_kristyn]

Yeah, I noticed that about the little Russian, though that was happening from the previous owner of her. I have had them only 5 months. I understand what you are saying about the isolation of these creatures and I do appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I am going to have both separated as soon as the tables are built. I am hoping with the new proper care of these two... the Russian will smooth out or at least not get any worse. So, any advice on how to heal the pyramiding? Or anything I can do?

I want all owner information of these tortoises I can get! Websites can say what is helpful and such, but true owner guidance is what I am looking for. Everyone here has definitely given me very helpful and knowledgeable advice that I have not been able to find. I wish I would have found this site when I first bought these guys.

 

[Kristina]

There is no way to reverse pyramiding. Once it is there, it is there. However, with proper diet and husbandry, you will see smooth growth at the margins and the pyramiding will be restricted to the existing areas. My two Sulcatas are pyramided, and they were that way when I got them, but I can already see smooth growth.

I am not trying to make you feel bad, but I can almost garuantee that the diet they have been recieving has added to the pyramding.

Kristina

 

[miss_kristyn]

Yes, I know it has. Though I am right now grinding up hay! lol But hopefully the new proper diet will stop the pyramiding! Thanks for all advice for my little guys! You all have helped me save my little ones from future harm! I will post there new homes as soon as they are done!!!

 

[Laura]

Also.. in a few years if not sooner, you will need an outdoor area for your sulcata. Outdoor for russian is best too.. if its safe.. so start thinking about that as well. I have 4 sulcatas. the big guys 10 years~60 pounds and 7 years 30 pounds, are in a 100x60 foot area. It could be smaller, but they are only getting bigger. and they cruise the entire area.
lights are fine, but REAL sun is best!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Until last month I had Tony who is 3 years and 14 pounds and there's no way I could have kept him in the house. He lived in the shed with Bob, but I am trying to show you that in just a short time that Sulcata will be too big for the house. 14 pounds is big and the scrapping noise as he is trying to dig his burrow in plywood is a noise that can be heard far and wide, and the smell from a 14 pound Sulcata permeates the house, so you should be figuring out now how he's going to live outside sooner then you think!

 

[DAC8671]

hehehehe, the smell! Oh how I know that smell! I'm so glad we put Ralph outside permanently this past summer!

 

[Kristina]

Hmmm, maybe it is because mine aren't that big, but I don't have a smell problem? And since they are in my bedroom, I garuantee I would notice it! I pick the poop out several times a day, and I notice that it STINKS when I do that, lol, but so far it hasn't gotten invasive

I really need to get my kids weighed. They are SO MUCH heavier than they were when I got them!

Kristina

 

[Meg90]

Okay I got two tables being built! I am sorry for not being more specific one my question to maggie3fan (I can see you are irritated). I just after reading your post ordered the correct seeding from the site you posted. I did see the spring mix substitute you suggested but the other types of foods you put I have not seen other than in seed form. I was meaning to ask about food for the time being other than lettuces being there main diet (read all lettuces should not be main diet) and before the seeds arrive and are grown what is a good meal plan mixture for their present day feedings. I did not mean to offend you by thinking I over looked your post. I just wanted some good diet plans before the real food gets here and is grown. And I read those sites on my own exploration of the Internet, though thank you for the advice and the correct knowledgeable sites.

Kyryah thanks for the helpful hint of grinding the hay, never thought of that trick! I am going to an exotic pet store in a bit to see what they have to offer.

I feed my Greek Spring mix. Along with supplement and veggies once every week. There is nothing wrong with that diet for winter. Once spring rolls around, Nigel will be getting more weeds, and varied plants into his diet. But for the winter, to keep feeding an incorrect diet while waiting for sprouts to grow is really not a good idea. Get some seed mix, plant it up, but in the mean time, head to walmart. You can get a good sized container of organic spring mix for just over 3$.

Maggie3fan was giving you good advice, stuff you can use now, not in 8 weeks when you have baby plants. she knows her stuff.

 

[miss_kristyn]

I have bought Kale and Green Collards for them for the mean time.... read that is a regular diet for them. They still will not touch it but I am pretty sure today they will!

Another question I was reading and half people I found said alfalfa hay should not be in there diet and others say yes... so what is true? Can I make there new bedding have hay in it so they can munch whenever? I saw many people with the bedding only hay? Wouldn't that hurt there eyes if poked like the Timothy hay seems very dangerous very hard.

 

[Kristina]

Alfalfa hay should not be in the diet. At all. The protein level is to high, a median of 18%.

I use timothy hay as bedding and allow my tortoises to eat it as they wish. They recieve one regular meal per day and then graze free choice. I have not had any problems with injuries, but then, I do not use pet store hay which can be harder and drier. I use horse hay from the same supplier that I get the feed for my horses from. It is fresher, only a couple of months old.

With the size of my enclosure I can't imagine how many bags of hay it would take! A bag is around $4-5, and I can get an entire 50lb bale for $4.25. It just depends on what you have available to you.

Kristina