Getting some sunlight in the cold months

[Amanda81]

Hello all. I would like to know what's the best way to get little ones outside for some sun during the cold months. I have uvb lights, zoo med high output florescent tube type but I'm really thinking my baby's need more. It's been a couple weeks, maybe 4 since I took any of them out for natural sunlight, my sulcata baby's seem to be doing fine but my leopards are not. This morning I noticed that Dent isn't using his back legs. Yesterday he was but not today, he pulls himself w his front ones. Now I have been having trouble with my supplements too. I can't get them to eat their food if I sprinkle the calcium or multivitamin powder on it. So I switched to the spray kind, and they refused all greens that it was on. At this point I have a couple not eating at all, they won't eat nothing, I even gave them watermelon in itty bitty pieces to see if I could at least get them to do something but they didnt bother. I have noticed that their keeping their eyes closed and rubbing them a lot with their legs. So I'm doing a lot of things on a daily basis to attempt to get these guys back up to par. The one thing I think they would benefit from that I haven't attempted is going outside for some real sun. I need a way to keep them warm for say 20-30 minutes while they sit in the sun. Could I put a warm water bottle in their pan and take them out? Since their not eating at this point and getting their vitamins and calcium in them that way isn't working I have been mixing it in their daily soaks. Today I picked up some baby food and I will start baby food soaks this afternoon as well. It's pretty warm in the sun but when the wind blows it's pretty chilly so I didn't know if it would be safe to take them out or not. My big guys are out roaming right now, hanging in the sunny parts of the yard but I'm sure they hold their warm body temp better then the baby's.

 

[smarch]

I can't talk specifically for so many physical things popping up, I've had to work with franklin having emotional response to sun missing and it sounded crazy, since I know glass blocks out the UVB, but I began to take him in a second plastic storage bin container I use as a "mobile enclosure" and put him in the window for a little bit each day and the seeing sunlight perked him up some, and I still don't get how maybe it looks nicer than the CFL I was using at the time. Are your UVB lights putting out enough UVB output? perhaps they aren't functioning on full UVB?

For getting sun and keeping warm I live in MA so I get the REALLY cold, nanks not been out for at least a month by now. To keep them warm I'd suggest first off a towel or blanket under the pan you'll bring them out in, I assume the ground gets chilly, and you could always put a body heating pad wrapped in the blanket/towel to stop it from getting too hot on the pan's bottom but have the warmth radiating from the bottom where they are. (I'd test that without torts first so you know for 100% sure it wont heat it too much, and if you put it under half they could go to and from the heat as pleased while outside. Or some form of hot water bottle wrapped up in there would probably work well so they could go to and from that and it would be heated inside where they're sitting.

Hope I helped some or gave some ideas. I couldn't actually do any of these since it gets real cold here, but they seem like valid safe ideas through my engineer mind Hopefully someone who does this often will come along soon for more help

 

[wellington]

Give us a little more info,on your set up. no coil type bulbs right? What's the temps and humidity? What is the basking temp? Are your uvb lights close enough for them to do any good? How much and how often are you giving the supplements? Too much is as bad as too little. Only a small pinch twice a week is enough. They have to be able to warm up past 85 degrees to properly digest their food, can they do that? Be sure to double check all temps when the colder whether sets in. Even though they are in the house, adjustments sometimes need to be made to get temps correct.

When my leopard was little, I bought a mini wood framed cold frame. I would put him in that, it's like a little green house. I lived on the third floor of my building, so instead of putting him outside, because I didn't want to go down three flights and sit in the cold so I could keep an eye on the temps, I fixed it to sit through a window opening. Half in, half out. I would keep a thermometer in there so I new he wouldn't roast, but he also had the half that was inside the house to come and cool off or even warm up if it happened to be warmer then the outside part.
You really want to be careful with babies and it being too cold.

 

[Amanda81]

No CFL lights. I have the zoo med high output tube light that goes the whole length of enclosure. It's 12-13" from substrate. I was using a halogen 43w, 750 lumens light bulb for their basking source which kept their basking spot at 90-92 degrees, I switched that out with a 75w zoo med basking spot light bulb that provides UVA 2 days ago now their basking spot is staying around 100 degrees. I have a 3" layer of Eco earth that I keep very wet and then 2" repti bark on top of that and I mist it every morning till its very damp, the bark drys out as the day goes and is just lightly damp by the time lights go off. Normally their cool side stays around 82-84 and their hot side around 90-92. Right now temps are slightly higher because when I noticed them acting different I turned up the heat some so their current temps are cool side 85-86 and hot side 94-96. Their humid hide is on their cool side, basking light is on hot side. My UVB lights are only about 6wks. I give them a varied diet. I mix dandelions, wide leaf plankton, bullhorn plankton, chickweed, sow thistle, small amount of clover leafs, and spring mix together and feed that daily. They get mazuri 2X wk, cactus 2-3Xwk and when I can get rose of Sharon or mulberry leaves I will give those but it's not often. (I just got my own source of grape vine, mulberry tree and I'm letting chemicals leach out so these better items will be available all the time in the spring) the only way I have been able to get them to consume their vitamins and calcium powder was to mix it in the mazuri but it was suggested that that wasn't good so I quit doing it. I finally found the spray on type of calcuim and vitamins and I attempted that on their daily greens but the one leopard that is still eating refused to eat then. So Friday evening I picked up some liquid vitamins for birds (I read a thread on here where someone used them) and soaked all of them in a vitamin/warm water mixture. So on Saturday morning I started doing a regular 30 minute warm water soak and in the evening about 3 hrs before lights out I am doing a warm water/vitamin/calcium soak. Opal, the baby that was the most lethargic seems much more perky today, she still won't eat but she is moving around a bit now and is opening her eyes a little more. Mace, he was semi lethargic and not eating, he is perked up some and if I cut cactus up into micro bits he will eat a few and his eyes are open but only like half way or something, they look smaller then usual. Duke, he is still lethargic, won't eat, and won't open his eyes, if he does open them he rubs them w his front legs and closes them right back, to me that seems as though it's painful to him, I don't know. Dent, over the weekend was just a little less active, keeping his eyes closed more then usual but not as severe as the others but today, lethargic, eyes closed, won't open them at all and then I noticed he had been sitting in his water dish for a while and this was right after his morning soak so I moved him out the dish and I noticed when he went to move he wasn't using his back legs so I picked him up and he moved his back legs and his little tail so I knew he wasn't paralyzed, he just can't use them when all his weight is on them. And then ivory, she is ok at this point. No eye issues, active as normal, eating.
Now I have 3 enclosures, all set up the same and everyone is cared for in the same manner. I have the quads in an enclosure and their fine. I have opal and mace in an enclosure (they came from same source) and I have duke dent ivory in an enclosure (they came from same source). I do not let them share space at anytime. No one soaks together, each individual one has their own soak tub, I soak them in their enclosures so there isn't a temperature fluctuation, someone gets a chill and gets RI.
Some history on them:
About a month ago I had 2 other Leo baby's, mr blink and Wednesday, that just got sick and died, so after speaking w their breeder, finding out they was started as recommended he suggested to quit taking them outside cause I have the UVB lighting and temps in my area were getting cooler and I was risking them getting chilled and to soak inside the enclosure so they don't run a risk of getting a chill. He then sent me opal and mace to replace mr blink and Wednesday. Ivory dent and duke I'm pretty sure was dry start baby's. They were in rough shape when I got them, since I have had them ivory and duke shell has got much better. They have grown, gaining 20-25g, their active and good eaters. Dent, his poor little shell continues to be a hot mess, he has gained like 2g the whole time I have had them, but he is active and a great eater. He had the boldest personality of the three. I always try and remember to wash my hands when I go from handling one enclosure to another but perhaps I didn't or something. I have all the enclosures set up the same, run their temps around the same, feed them the same, if I do something to one I usually do it to all so I just don't understand what is going wrong. I know my sulcata hatchlings were about 2 months old when I got them, mace and opal were a month old and I'm not really sure about ivory duke and dent, ivory and duke had some white growth places coming in when I got them (if that can help guess an age) I'm really just not sure what's going wrong or how to fix it and keep it from happening again.

 

[Amanda81]

So I got an aluminum pan, dampened a kitchen hand towel warmed it up in the microwave, put it in bottom of the pan, covered that with dry bark and enclosure by enclosure took everyone out for 20 minutes each. I put the pan 2/3 in a spot that got direct sun and a 1/3 in the shade, set the pan on a piece of tin that was sitting in sun all day so it kept nice and warm. I monitored the temp of the bark and the top of their shells every couple minutes. The bark stayed around 80-90, their shells 83-88, shade-sun. If the wind blew I put a bath towel over them till it quit. They got real spunky. All of them, even dent was pulling himself around by his front legs. Opal who hasn't ate in 5 days even attempted to bite a clover but missed and went on walking around. Is this a sign I need to try and bring them out? Is my lighting inside not enough? Should I do it again tomorrow? What temp is safe for them if I'm monitoring the top of their shell? In order for them to be getting enough UVB, what's the minimum they need? Some days are like 40 degrees and we don't get any sun shine the whole day but some days are like today, chilly when the wind blows but warm in the sun. Of course if it's safe to get them outside in their pan, I will do it every chance I get but what's the minimum I need if I have more bad days then good? An hour a week, 20 minutes a day, what? I will do whatever if it will help.

 

[Amanda81]

So I have dug around and found some normal saline syringes and butterfly tubes. With a little DIY work I have created a feeding tube that I think would work. What would you use in a feeding tube to encourage a baby to start eating again? Watered down baby carrots maybe? Or would some sugar water be better? I think if I could get a little something in opal she would might start eating again. And well, I think Dent is going to have to be force feed his calcium or his back legs will never get better. This spray calcium I got says for MBD to administer 3 drops every other day orally. Oh another thing, I was checking my UVB light and its a high out put 5.0 not a 10.0, it's 12-13" from my torts, should I switch to the 10.0. I run 10.0 in the sulcata enclosure but I guess I forgot to switch these ones for 10.0 bulbs, do u think the 5.0 isn't giving enough UVB for them?

 

[wellington]

Boy, I can answer a couple things, then I am getting someone else here to help out. The calcium in the Mazuri is not a bad idea, so I would go back to that if it worked for you. No more then a small pinch twice a week. You can put the baby food carrots in the warm water soaks, that will be less stressful for them then tube feeding or force feeding. I would also put some pedialyte in the warm soak too. I think I would bump up the uvb light or switch to a mvb, which gives out the most you can buy. When you think it's warm enough to take them out, get a temp gun and shoot the ground. It should be 80, 75 might be okay, but I wouldn't chance it with sick ones. Now I will try to get you some more help. Good luck. @Yvonne G @tortadise @Tom

 

[Tom]

Do NOT use a feeding tube. Its not time for that yet, and unless you have discovered and solved the problem, it won't do any good anyway.

Wiping the eyes suggests their eyes hurt. 10-12" is too close for an HO bulb. Do you have a UV meter? I'll bet you are burning their eyes.


What are the daytime highs there now?

I sun my baby sulcatas and leopards in big black rubber tubs when its as low as 60 outside. No substrate. The black rubber heats up into the 90s in direct sun and so do their carapaces. The shady parts of the tub are usually in the 50s during this time, so they can escape the heat whenever they want. This is really only beneficial to do in the middle of the day since there is not much UV in the winter sun early morning or late afternoon. I watch my temps VERY closely when I do this. I get through colder winter spells this way.

 

[Amanda81]

Ok thanks for the advice. So I shouldn't worry about trying to get something in their bellies at this point? I don't think I would be able to pry their little mouths open and use the tube feeder anyways so I abandoned that idea. I soaked then this evening and I switched their basking lights out again, changed it to the MVB bulbs I have, ivory and Mace are running around everywhere eating like normal. Perhaps I should just leave my tube light off and just run the MVB for now, see if that helps w their eyes. I did notice a huge difference when I brought them outside, they had their eyes open more and was much more active. I did dig one of my black dish pans out and I'm going to try taking them out in that, weather permitting tomorrow. Today was around 75 and tomorrow is suppose to be around 79 so hopefully I can get them out again. What's the minimum amount of time a week I need to get them actual sun to not really need the artificial uVB? I will continue to use my MVB but I would like to make sure Dent is getting an adequate amount of natural sunlight so hopefully his little legs will work again.

 

[AmRoKo]

I would stop using the tube light for now or at least put it up higher and I would be giving them vitamin d mixed with calcium supplement if I was unable to get them outside for a long time, also the one with the leg problem I would definitely be giving him the extra vitamin d because it sounds like he is extremely deficient in both that and calcium right now. Also I give vitamins to my babies mixed with mazuri and have never had a problem with that, don't know who the heck told you it was bad but there are many on this forum with differing opinions.

 

[Amanda81]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't use the tube light today and have been trying to figure a way to raise it up some. I won't use it anymore til I get it up higher. As for their supplements, I use a calcium w vitamin d3 and a multivitamin. The directions say to mix the two and sprinkle on food few times a week. Course my guys are not having any of that. Today I dug out the blender, blended up some pumpkin, a little of every part, mixed the supplements in that and tricked them. The sulcatas ate it up and ivory at some. Mace nibbled on a few greens today, which is a decrease for him, duke ate nothing again today and opal ate a few clover petals which is great compared to the past 4 days when she didn't eat at all. Of course the only time she would even attempt eating was while we were outside. I brought some clover petals back in w us and put them in her plate but she never even attempted inside. Dent, the one with the back legs not working was dead when I got up at 5 this morning and checked on him. It breaks my heart but at least he didn't suffer for days/weeks like my others did last time. I really just don't understand what is going on with them. My sulcatas are all fine and they get the same care, literally, if I do something w one I do it to the others. Same foods, same soaks, same enclosure set up, everything. Now the tube light in the sulcata enclosure is like 15-16" from the substrate but that's really the only difference. I use the exact same equipment in all my enclosures as well. As for being told to stop mixing the mazuri and supplements, this person is someone that I highly admire when it comes to tort care and it did make sense since the mazuri is a balanced food item, probably shouldn't be giving more supplements with something that already has the balanced amount in it. But if I can't come up with something else to mix it in that they will eat and get their supplements that they need, I will have to start mixing it with the mazuri again because I don't want them to be lacking something and getting sick and dying on me again. So thank you for letting me know you have done this without it harming your tort, that will help if I have to go back to mixing it in the mazuri again.

 

[Alaskamike]

I'm so sorry you lost dent. I've lost a baby too before and I know how agonizing it can be. It it obvious you are doing all you can.

 

[Jodie]

Sorry to hear about Dent. It is so frustrating when you can't figure out what is going on and how to fix it. I hope changing the light helps them.

 

[leigti]

Just an idea, could you use black or dark colored Rubbermaid bins, shallow ones with some substrate in there and lay it out in the sun? There are also shallow stock tanks that could work for this, black ones I'm thinking.The bin that would hold in some heat so the tortoise can get some nice sun light. When I measure the temperature of my outdoor enclosure I am often very surprised it is so warm. Especially near the walls. The walls keep the wind out some.

 

[Amanda81]

I use a black dishpan. I sit it out and let it warm up then I put a warm damp towel in the bottom of it and cover w a thin layer of bark. I monitor the temp of bark and the top of their shells every couple minutes, if anything drops below 85 inside we go. Today we was having episodes were it would be warm and then the wind would blow so I took another towel out w us and covered the pan anytime the wind picked up. They wasn't as active today as yesterday while in the sun but opal ate a little so it was worth it. And yes it's extremely frustrating to me cause i am doing what I know to be the right way to do things and I am losing baby's anyways. Plus I worry about my others, which are completely fine, but I still worry. I guess I will see what tomorrow brings.

 

[AmRoKo]

Just an idea, could you use black or dark colored Rubbermaid bins, shallow ones with some substrate in there and lay it out in the sun? There are also shallow stock tanks that could work for this, black ones I'm thinking.The bin that would hold in some heat so the tortoise can get some nice sun light. When I measure the temperature of my outdoor enclosure I am often very surprised it is so warm. Especially near the walls. The walls keep the wind out some.

Using the tall dark rubbermaid tubs definitely makes sense - would absorb heat and keep winds out, cool idea!

Man I'm sorry to hear about Dent, I wonder whats going on with the babies, since your sullies are doing so well make sure they don't come into contact with the leopards because something might be spreading around them, though I'm not sure about this I'm just guessing because I honestly don't know what could be going wrong here.

 

[Amanda81]

Oh yes, I keep everyone separate. I am actually in the process of making some holding tanks now. I borrowed some 10 and 20 gallon tanks off a girlfriend so I'm setting up temporary homes for each individual leopard. I know those are small tanks for them but it's just till we either get better or figure out what's going on. Hospital tanks per say. I'm in process of having more enclosures built for them so if we pull thru everyone will eventually have their own big space. The Sullys are getting their own too! I have always wanted to get them separated and since I have a smaller sully and well Dent was having his growth issues I went ahead and started building so I could separate and see if they did better in their own space.
I was also very surprised at the temp of the bark yesterday when I took them out to sun. It was pretty chilly out but the temps in their dishpan were nice and toasty.